RAF and the DDay celebrations

[Tooks]

I'm not sure you could say the USAF is less committed? The BBMF is a great institution and gives much joy to many, especially those old enough to remember the aircraft operationally. The BBMF is a choice. It isn't the only way. The USAF has a heritage flight and don't own the Mustangs that often fly in formation with in-service machines. I'm not saying that is better, just that there are other options.

It won't be long before airframe hours on the T1's run out. Imagine ceremonial events without the Reds. Is that progress?

UK defence spending is c. £49,700,000,000 pa to cover all services. As I've stated before, it is a choice how you spend it. e.g 2x aircraft carriers 6.2bn, 48x F35 9.1bn, roll of vinyl £16.99, tin of dulux non-drip gloss £12.99. Even taking those two large programmes in one fiscal year, that leaves 69% of the annual budget.

As for invasion stripes on modern machines being 'cheap'. That's one perspective. Another is that the original intent was to identify friendly forces with a common symbol. In the present day we have the Americans, Belgians, Norwegians, etc all showing solidarity and we are conspicuous by our absence.

Except we’re not absent. I’ve watched the BBMF aircraft rolling up and down the Coningsby runway for months now, I know how much work has gone in over the winter to get them ready for not just the recent commemorations but for another full season of displays and events.

Last time I checked, the BBMF DC-3 had invasion stripes on it...

If you think that putting stripes on any newer aircraft is just a case of applying vinyl and/or gloss paint to it, then please think again. Another way to think about it is that every penny of defence expenditure is bid for, justified and then spent. If you’re going to spend money re-painting operational aircraft for events, what are you not going to do?

What we had to do during a world war 75 years ago is very different to how we do things now in ‘peacetime’, and rightly so.

The Hawk T1 OSD is 2030, so not quite the time to be worrying about the Reds yet.

[verreli]

Officially the OSD for T1's is 2030 but as you saw with Harrier, an airframe is just one SDR away from retirement. Also, 100sqn use them pretty hard for DCT which isn't shortening their fatigue life. It'll be interesting to see if they make another 10 years.

As for the stripes, you seem to have an insight into what's required. Please explain.

[YellowBelly]

whilst I can sympathise with the thoughts on this thread, especially as I am an avid aviation fan myself, the stark reality is that the money for the RAF just isnt there. The Force is continually seeking continuous improvement in an effort to save money, money that actually needs to be saved.

If you knew at the attempts to save money by a professional force, it would make your toes curl, this is due to unforeseen circumstances that is causing the Force to tighten on its expenditure, for example, the long term temporary closure of ASI to the Voyager force.

No one knows the struggles better than those that are currently serving, over the past 20 years the terms of service between the Force and its people have slowly but surely degraded and if you look at the example of RAF Scampton, the infrastructure is also suffering severely.

Why did the RAF100 celebration seem relatively low key? money, pure and simple, i think the funds allocated was less than 10 million quid, that doesnt get you much in the grand scheme of things.

If I am brutally honest, we should actually be grateful we still have an Air Force.

Trust me, I know what the feelings are like in the armed forces right now and the feeling inside the fence is much more somber than that of the outside! However, nobody is that strapped for financing, well apart from the Spanish air force that are really struggling and even they have painted an a400 special!

i wonder if the Spanish have conducted a trial to find out which is cheaper, running aircraft systems with a rented GPU or running the APU and burning fuel, yes that really is the level of penny pinching that is ongoing.

[Thunder]

I don't know if things have changed since my involvement with the RAF, but it used be that any aircraft that was selected for a special livery was due to be going through the paint and finishing shop anyway, and would then normally carry the livery till the next time it was due to go back through. Obviously sometimes due to operational reasons the scheme could disappear earlier than anticipated. In later years die cut vinyl became the norm for the lesser schemes and these could be applied and then removed a lot quicker and cheaper. It's nothing to do with financial constraints as the MoD waste a lot more per day through food wastage, and heating, it's all to do with the top brass some(most)of which are Civilian employed applying overly excessive political correctness.

[teeonefixer]

Applying an alternative colour scheme requires a bit more than a tin of paint or flash of vinyl, it has to be cleared through all sorts of regulations e.g. the special colour scheme Hawk T1s a few years ago weren't cleared for low level flying. Its needs a bit of will at an early stage to push this through, which it seems hasn't been considered.

[Agent K]

I don't know if things have changed since my involvement with the RAF, but it used be that any aircraft that was selected for a special livery was due to be going through the paint and finishing shop anyway, and would then normally carry the livery till the next time it was due to go back through. Obviously sometimes due to operational reasons the scheme could disappear earlier than anticipated. In later years die cut vinyl became the norm for the lesser schemes and these could be applied and then removed a lot quicker and cheaper. It's nothing to do with financial constraints as the MoD waste a lot more per day through food wastage, and heating, it's all to do with the top brass some(most)of which are Civilian employed applying overly excessive political correctness.

I'm not so sure PC is the issue, after all these self same aircraft are delivering "kinetic effect" in sandier climes, now painting/applying some stripes/colours on an aircraft are surely far less antagonistic than the previous!

I do note, and have mixed views on this, but understand some of both the rationale and effort behind it, that the RAF is not adverse to putting up formations, role demos etc. for their closed door family days, with types that regular punters would love to but never see on the display circuit (Pumas etc.), maybe this is their focus?

[cj9ru]

Hi

I have to agree with the thoughts about effort to put on a special livery or two. It was an opportunity missed. The Lakenheath F15s looked superb didn't they?

However, folk are also correct in pointing out the immense financial pressure that our beloved RAF are now operating under. Since my son joined up the personnel in the RAF has reduced by something approaching 50%.We are all also aware of the reduction in airframes too. It is a great pity that they couldn't get on top of procurement as I feel millions have been flushed down the toilet overthelast twenty years.

I can't help feeling that if enough thought had been put to it they could have got some company/companies to sponsor a jet or two.

My main worry is the potential threat to the BBMF and Reds if budgets continue to be sliced. Let us all hope the BBMF and Reds are around longer than some of our potential political leaders. It doesn't matter which way you look they are all equally capable of making a right mess!


Anyway, well done to all the nations that went the extra mile. It showed a touch of class.


Chris

[DJ17]

Hi

I have to agree with the thoughts about effort to put on a special livery or two. It was an opportunity missed. The Lakenheath F15s looked superb didn't they?

However, folk are also correct in pointing out the immense financial pressure that our beloved RAF are now operating under. Since my son joined up the personnel in the RAF has reduced by something approaching 50%.We are all also aware of the reduction in airframes too. It is a great pity that they couldn't get on top of procurement as I feel millions have been flushed down the toilet overthelast twenty years.

I can't help feeling that if enough thought had been put to it they could have got some company/companies to sponsor a jet or two.

My main worry is the potential threat to the BBMF and Reds if budgets continue to be sliced. Let us all hope the BBMF and Reds are around longer than some of our potential political leaders. It doesn't matter which way you look they are all equally capable of making a right mess!


Anyway, well done to all the nations that went the extra mile. It showed a touch of class.


Chris

Yup, good post.

[PeteHemsley]

Hi

I have to agree with the thoughts about effort to put on a special livery or two. It was an opportunity missed. The Lakenheath F15s looked superb didn't they?

However, folk are also correct in pointing out the immense financial pressure that our beloved RAF are now operating under. Since my son joined up the personnel in the RAF has reduced by something approaching 50%.We are all also aware of the reduction in airframes too. It is a great pity that they couldn't get on top of procurement as I feel millions have been flushed down the toilet overthelast twenty years.

I can't help feeling that if enough thought had been put to it they could have got some company/companies to sponsor a jet or two.

My main worry is the potential threat to the BBMF and Reds if budgets continue to be sliced. Let us all hope the BBMF and Reds are around longer than some of our potential political leaders. It doesn't matter which way you look they are all equally capable of making a right mess!


Anyway, well done to all the nations that went the extra mile. It showed a touch of class.


Chris

Really nicely put

[Supra]

If the RAF Budget continues to shrink to a point where the daily operation is threatened maybe the UK should revert to its minimum commitment to NATO, as others have already done! To also cease trying to emulate the Golden Warrior (aka Tweeter Trump) as World Police & confine operations to the NATO/UK interests?
The BBMF could survive by opting onto the Civil Register as per the RNHF to Navy Wings, but my preference would obviously be that it remains as is. Wayyyy before that option should be... "Ladies, Gentlemen & undecided, welcome to the 2022 Rolex Red Arrows"

[Agent K]

Whilst the RAF has undoubtedly shrunk to ridiculous amounts over the past few decades, my perception is that that shrinkage has halted and even some minor growth is happening again.

With the addition of further a typhoon squadrons (I know no further aircraft have been ordered but manpower is increasing to equip them), P8 entering service etc. and the much reported inability to cope with this surge in flying training.

[turmo]

It's not lack of money that's a problem, a few million can always be found when the right people are behind an idea. The issue is lack of top-down interest.

If an ACM wanted invasion stripes on a dozen Typhoons, invasion stripes would be painted.

[Neil D]

It's not lack of money that's a problem, a few million can always be found when the right people are behind an idea. The issue is lack of top-down interest.

If an ACM wanted invasion stripes on a dozen Typhoons, invasion stripes would be painted.

They have just changed the tail markings on the Victor and Tornado gate guards at Marham from RAF 100 to something else that only people on base will see!

Neil

[YellowBelly]

Whilst the RAF has undoubtedly shrunk to ridiculous amounts over the past few decades, my perception is that that shrinkage has halted and even some minor growth is happening again.

With the addition of further typhoon squadrons (I know no further aircraft have been ordered but manpower is increasing to equip them), P8 entering service etc. and the much reported inability to cope with this surge in flying training.

sadly mate, ur assumption about manpower increasing is incorrect, the manpower for the additional typhoon and p-8 sqns came from manpower cuts elsewhere. the total force was set at 31,750 in sdsr20 ( down from 33,000 sdsr15 )and that hasnt changed, my own trade of 800+ pers lost 52 posts in 2016, additionally, any civilian post under op herrick funding (54 posts for us) also went in 2015. in the eyes of the seniors, these cuts were necessary even though they have affected operational output elsewhere, now we have to put up with bullplop such as "smarter ways of working" or less time afforded to development such as training, expeditions, sport, etc.

i also know of 50 techy posts that were lost as well, and these losses where at the same base.

[Agent K]

Whilst the RAF has undoubtedly shrunk to ridiculous amounts over the past few decades, my perception is that that shrinkage has halted and even some minor growth is happening again.

With the addition of further typhoon squadrons (I know no further aircraft have been ordered but manpower is increasing to equip them), P8 entering service etc. and the much reported inability to cope with this surge in flying training.

sadly mate, ur assumption about manpower increasing is incorrect, the manpower for the additional typhoon and p-8 sqns came from manpower cuts elsewhere. the total force was set at 31,750 in sdsr20 ( down from 33,000 sdsr15 )and that hasnt changed, my own trade of 800+ pers lost 52 posts in 2016, additionally, any civilian post under op herrick funding (54 posts for us) also went in 2015. in the eyes of the seniors, these cuts were necessary even though they have affected operational output elsewhere, now we have to put up with bullplop such as "smarter ways of working" or less time afforded to development such as training, expeditions, sport, etc.

i also know of 50 techy posts that were lost as well, and these losses where at the same base.

Thanks for the clarity and detail, yes, it appears as often is the case, increases in some areas have come at the expense of others.