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Machloop ban

A forum for discussing all things related to MILITARY AVIATION including Military Aviation news. No off-topic discussions here please.
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ChrisCwmbran
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Re: Machloop ban

Post by ChrisCwmbran » Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:34 am

I don't agree Mark.

She took the photo in a public place and has a right to publish it if she wants.

The fact that it might have ramifications is something she can ignore if she wishes.

"Public opinion" is also something she can ignore if she wishes. She chose to do so, and regrettably has been targeted by some in a completely unacceptable way as a result. Expecting there to be a reasonable proportioned backlash was however likely and she must accept that likelihood.

The people in my opinion who are potentially in the wrong here are really either the pilot, or those who are extremely enraged who responded so strongly to her.

I can say in all honesty that whilst I like this forum, and it has some great members but at the same time has members I consider to be total tools. The same applies to the hobby in general as far as I can see. If I had a photo or video I wanted to share, although I'd be mindful of potential backlash from other aviation enthusiasts, I certainly wouldn't allow them to dictate my decision.

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Mark
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Re: Machloop ban

Post by Mark » Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:50 am

ChrisCwmbran wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:34 am
I don't agree Mark.

She took the photo in a public place and has a right to publish it if she wants.

The fact that it might have ramifications is something she can ignore if she wishes.

"Public opinion" is also something she can ignore if she wishes. She chose to do so, and regrettably has been targeted by some in a completely unacceptable way as a result. Expecting there to be a reasonable proportioned backlash was however likely and she must accept that likelihood.

The people in my opinion who are potentially in the wrong here are really either the pilot, or those who are extremely enraged who responded so strongly to her.

I can say in all honesty that whilst I like this forum, and it has some great members but at the same time has members I consider to be total tools. The same applies to the hobby in general as far as I can see. If I had a photo or video I wanted to share, although I'd be mindful of potential backlash from other aviation enthusiasts, I certainly wouldn't allow them to dictate my decision.
I must admit Chris, that I keep a low profile when out and about these days as there are so many knobs within the aviation community that have a holier than thou attitude. It may be worth reminding these people that in the larger worldwide community that they are still classified as geeks and anoraks and very little notice is actually paid to them. Maybe that's why they pontificate on here as everywhere else largely ignores them?? lol!!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mark_holt_photography/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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ChrisCwmbran
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Re: Machloop ban

Post by ChrisCwmbran » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:12 pm

Most hobbies seem to have people who think they are someone, who in fact are no-one.

romeo bravo
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Re: Machloop ban

Post by romeo bravo » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:03 pm

Mark wrote "There were 2 parties in the wrong here. The Pilot for performing the climb out and the poster for publishing it despite public opinion regarding the potential ramifications..."

Regards the second comment, the ramification only happened after the video was posted. You could also raise the issue of the Turk (if I remember) F16 at Waddington coming in too low; not a massive outcry despite the possible endangerment to life.

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Mark
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Re: Machloop ban

Post by Mark » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:12 pm

romeo bravo wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:03 pm
Mark wrote "There were 2 parties in the wrong here. The Pilot for performing the climb out and the poster for publishing it despite public opinion regarding the potential ramifications..."

Regards the second comment, the ramification only happened after the video was posted. You could also raise the issue of the Turk (if I remember) F16 at Waddington coming in too low; not a massive outcry despite the possible endangerment to life.
There are traffic lights on the road crossing the final approach to Waddington to mitigate that kind of eventuality though...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mark_holt_photography/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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ChrisCwmbran
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Re: Machloop ban

Post by ChrisCwmbran » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:16 pm

Mark wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:12 pm
romeo bravo wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:03 pm
Mark wrote "There were 2 parties in the wrong here. The Pilot for performing the climb out and the poster for publishing it despite public opinion regarding the potential ramifications..."

Regards the second comment, the ramification only happened after the video was posted. You could also raise the issue of the Turk (if I remember) F16 at Waddington coming in too low; not a massive outcry despite the possible endangerment to life.
There are traffic lights on the road crossing the final approach to Waddington to mitigate that kind of eventuality though...
The trouble is, if you extend that argument Mark, the logical conclusion is that given the fast jet activity perhaps the Loop is not safe for photographers.

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C24
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Re: Machloop ban

Post by C24 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:37 pm

2019, another year of controversial threads. Whoopee!

I've just watched the video three times, read the thread twice, I think that I understand what everyone is on about.

Just my thoughts & comments.

If the pilot was on his own, he was a Dillon of the First Water. If the Typhoon was two up, he is a double Dillon and probably has one less friend.

I cannot think why Debbie should not post the video. It shows that everyone has poor judgement at sometime during their life.

If the pilot has been taken off flying, then heaven help us should we be involved in a another conflict. He is probably a better pilot now than he was just before he almost embedded himself in the hill.

The incident could be a clear example of the low flying training given to our pilots. He missed the ground and the feeling of " Oops! that was close! " that he must have felt would have registered forever in his brain and was realistic training never to be found on a simulator.
The rolls during the climb out must have been due to a survival/survived that one, reflex.

My vote goes to him and Debbie.

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baz1
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Re: Machloop ban

Post by baz1 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:03 pm

and not forgetting the Tyhoon low app over the fence

Agent K
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Re: Machloop ban

Post by Agent K » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:07 pm

Of course if he'd been flying a newer and better equipped aircraft, i.e. the Tornado he'd have hit the TFR button and none of this nonsense would have happened.......

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Mark
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Re: Machloop ban

Post by Mark » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:18 pm

ChrisCwmbran wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:16 pm
Mark wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:12 pm
romeo bravo wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:03 pm
Mark wrote "There were 2 parties in the wrong here. The Pilot for performing the climb out and the poster for publishing it despite public opinion regarding the potential ramifications..."

Regards the second comment, the ramification only happened after the video was posted. You could also raise the issue of the Turk (if I remember) F16 at Waddington coming in too low; not a massive outcry despite the possible endangerment to life.
There are traffic lights on the road crossing the final approach to Waddington to mitigate that kind of eventuality though...
The trouble is, if you extend that argument Mark, the logical conclusion is that given the fast jet activity perhaps the Loop is not safe for photographers.
How the hell would they Police that given they don't even have the man power to attend a burglary??

I would imagine (and i'm no air safety expert) that even with the new airshow restrictions there is still a possibility of endangerment to life, yet we still attend in droves!!

The loop probably isn't classed as safe in any respect given that its a fast jet training area even if it is in a national park..
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mark_holt_photography/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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ChrisCwmbran
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Re: Machloop ban

Post by ChrisCwmbran » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:50 pm

I didn't suggest that they could or should police it.

I just suggested it was the ultimate conclusion from your comment about traffic lights.

I don't know if the land belongs to farmers, or the government so I can't really comment. I'm sure it could be made much harder to do though if they wanted to.

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Thunder
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Re: Machloop ban

Post by Thunder » Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:16 pm

The answer to over influx of people in the Mach loop is to move away from what is in fact a congestion point for a/c, anything going into LFA 7 more or less goes through the "loop". Move the majority of low level stuff into LFA14 and due to the geographical size and remoteness of it you will not have the same conflict between people and a/c.

The problem at Waddington wasn't traffic on the A15, it was the so called I think I know better enthusiasts and I haven't got a clue public(separate the two if you can) fouling the undershoot, so leave the poor traffic lights alone, they did their job perfectly well.

As for the Mach loop Typhoon pilot now being a better pilot, I highly much doubt it. He had no regards for the rules, the taxpayers a/c or indeed himself/family/friends and with that doesn't deserve to hold a Queens Commission. What makes it worse is the fact that over the last few years several crew/s have been caught out in the loop(remember the "I'm with stupid" saga), so I would imagine that all crews are reminded during training and fairly regular afterwards that "the hills have eyes".

Amazes me on this forum that when someone posts a video of an Ukrainian pilot flying a SU24 or an Argentinian pilot flying a IA-63 Pampa at stupid levels, they and their force are tarred as unprofessional and a disgrace to other aircrew, however when it's the RAF he is likened to a naughty schoolboy just up to high jinks.

DJ17
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Re: Machloop ban

Post by DJ17 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:23 pm

Unfortunately, we've not heard the pilot's side of the story.

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Thunder
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Re: Machloop ban

Post by Thunder » Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:27 pm

Do we need to, it's all on camera.

DJ17
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Re: Machloop ban

Post by DJ17 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:39 pm

Guilty then?

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ChrisCwmbran
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Re: Machloop ban

Post by ChrisCwmbran » Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:41 pm

I don't think its a judgement for us to pass.

The only people we need judge are those enthusiasts who responded very badly to the posting....

Gus0898uk
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Re: Machloop ban

Post by Gus0898uk » Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:06 pm

Had Tornado's used to fly through the Mach Loop in darkness using Terrain Following Radar? If so it must have been somewhat scary, I did read once about vehicles being higher than aircraft using TFR, but I am not sure if this was the Loop.

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Thunder
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Re: Machloop ban

Post by Thunder » Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:28 pm

DJ17 wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:39 pm
Guilty then?
If you see the video then yes guilty of breaking the rules. Too low, just about takes himself out on the low ridge line, goes vertical, then not one or two but at least four rolls in the vertical.

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Blackcat1
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Re: Machloop ban

Post by Blackcat1 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:36 pm

Have seen a few types going vertical through Cad, it's not the vertical climb that caused the trouble , it was the rolls that were carried out. A lot of noise complaints over the years & there was a lot more complaints leading up to the incident.
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TAFFEVANS
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Re: Machloop ban

Post by TAFFEVANS » Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:37 pm

Gus0898uk wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:06 pm
Had Tornado's used to fly through the Mach Loop in darkness using Terrain Following Radar? If so it must have been somewhat scary, I did read once about vehicles being higher than aircraft using TFR, but I am not sure if this was the Loop.
Never went through the Loop at night on the TFR but regularly went through Dunmail Raise/Grasmere in the Lakes. Having enjoyed many hours flying at low level, there is a difference between ‘pushing the limits’ & show boating though. My Navigator through TTTE was sadly killed a couple of days before GW1 when they impacted the desert during a steep turn. The main difference these days is the social media aspect, do something vaguely stupid/incriminating and people in Australia will know about it seconds later.

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