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Machloop ban

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The Phantom
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Re: Machloop ban

Post by The Phantom » Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:29 pm

Blackcat1 wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:43 pm
I remember the good old days where there was a lot more traffic . Seeing the Bwlch & Cad car parks with 1 or 2 cars parked was great! It's far too popular now & other locations in Wales have become far quieter.
That's the ironic thing: when there were up to 60 passes per day in the Cold War years nobody was there (granted because decent cameras weren't readily affordable back then - and were quite a privilege) and only a few locals witnessed it. Now that nothing hardly happens there, it is the busiest it has ever been with car parks overflowing by 8am on summer days or when there are visiting jets at LN - and subsequent problems of police having to come out because of parking along the roadside, etc.

An affect of the internet, facebook, etc, I suppose.

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Blackcat1
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Re: Machloop ban

Post by Blackcat1 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:36 pm

Yes social media has caused some trouble I guess. I live 2 hours away and was also lucky to remember those days. I live near the Brecon Beacons and back in the day it was just as busy or occasionally busier than the loop! I remember during morning break at school and you would see Phantoms or Tornado F3s chasing Harriers through my valley!! Awesome sights. Now if someone sees a few Hawks in the loop, it's described as a good day!
Gareth

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TomG
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Re: Machloop ban

Post by TomG » Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:43 pm

Blackcat1 wrote:
Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:44 pm
It's a LFA/MTA , push it to the limits, its what makes the RAF the best of the best.
Provided those 'limits' meet the requirements of https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... RA2330.pdf ......

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Blackcat1
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Re: Machloop ban

Post by Blackcat1 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:50 pm

Lucky enough to have seen 2 Tornados low level down here over the Beacons recently so they still use LFA7 just not the Loop itself. Saves me a 4 hour round trip lol .
Gareth

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The Phantom
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Re: Machloop ban

Post by The Phantom » Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:58 pm

Blackcat1 wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:36 pm
Yes social media has caused some trouble I guess. I live 2 hours away and was also lucky to remember those days. I live near the Brecon Beacons and back in the day it was just as busy or occasionally busier than the loop! I remember during morning break at school and you would see Phantoms or Tornado F3s chasing Harriers through my valley!! Awesome sights. Now if someone sees a few Hawks in the loop, it's described as a good day!
Yes Brecons was busy back in the 80s - with even F-111's being visitors over there :Wow:
Also used to see loads of jets transiting across the Malverns back then.

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Blackcat1
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Re: Machloop ban

Post by Blackcat1 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:01 pm

Yes mate my house was on the east to west flight path! Common for F111s a over the house especially on Friday mornings.
Gareth

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The Phantom
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Re: Machloop ban

Post by The Phantom » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:15 pm

Blackcat1 wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:01 pm
Yes mate my house was on the east to west flight path! Common for F111s a over the house especially on Friday mornings.
Very nice :thumb:

If only I could build a time machine :roll:

ColintheCaterpillar
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Re: Machloop ban

Post by ColintheCaterpillar » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:20 pm

ChrisCwmbran wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:14 pm
jem60 wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:42 am
Flying has to be very disciplined, and there is no room for a cavalier attitude to safety these days.
In the sad event of conflict using low level flying skills, will both sides be flying to the same rules, showing due consideration to health and safety? :unsure:
In the event of a conflict the aircrew will fly how they have trained. There is no excuse for deliberately flouting the Low Flying rules. Doing in the Mach Loop was just a good case for a Darwin Award for the pilot.

As for the young lady who posted the video, she could have had all the “advice” she wanted from other photographers (who may have had their own interests at heart perhaps?); in the event I believe she did the correct thing in posting it so it nipped any daftness in the bud.

ColintheCaterpillar
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Re: Machloop ban

Post by ColintheCaterpillar » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:23 pm

Mark wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:51 pm
EGVP wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:43 pm
But there are no rules for what you can and cannot photograph and post online, if taken from a public footpath or farmer's field, with permission to access, of British military aircraft flying around Britain.
Correct, but there are Ramifications and repercussion's as seen by the cessation of flights through the loop. If someone gives you sound advise and the reasons why, then follow it and don't ruin it for the rest..
Mark,

This is a selfish attitude. What were the reasons she should have not shared the video? Were they associated with Flight Safety?

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Blackcat1
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Re: Machloop ban

Post by Blackcat1 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:50 pm

Yes Phantom me too!
Gareth

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toom317
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Re: Machloop ban

Post by toom317 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:16 pm

Mark wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:51 pm
EGVP wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:43 pm
But there are no rules for what you can and cannot photograph and post online, if taken from a public footpath or farmer's field, with permission to access, of British military aircraft flying around Britain.
Correct, but there are Ramifications and repercussion's as seen by the cessation of flights through the loop. If someone gives you sound advise and the reasons why, then follow it and don't ruin it for the rest..
Pilots must be well aware of the number of folk who inhabit the sides of the hills, especially in the Loop, so don't go blaming photographers if they, the pilots, get caught out in this, or any other location, If this was part of a set up, then it should have been set up somewhere a bit more discreet. The ban in the loop wasn't caused by somebody posting a video, it was because of the pilots actions.
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T_J
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Re: Machloop ban

Post by T_J » Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:51 pm

The person who filmed it openly admitted on Twitter that she had a contact in the low flying booking system. She admitted that she knew what was coming through when she made a trip up Cad East that day. That alone probably didn't help and you can imagine that it opened up a bit of a can of worms.

jem60
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Re: Machloop ban

Post by jem60 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:57 pm

ChrisCwmbran. It sounds on one of your previous posts re this, that you are encouraging pilots to fly even lower!. So, no offence, are you suggesting that low-flying takes place at even lower altitudes, presumably, taking it to the stage where perhaps we lose 1 or 2 or 3 pilots and aircraft a year, with all that entails. Hills in Wales, England and Scotland and Ireland were littered with the wrecks of Vulcans, Harriers, Tornados etc., until more stringent low-fly rules came into place and thank goodness they are mostly adhered to. The R.A.F. doesn't exist to supply photographers with nice pictures!. We have to preserve aircraft and their pilots for obvious reasons, and show-boating for pictures is not one of them.

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ChrisCwmbran
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Re: Machloop ban

Post by ChrisCwmbran » Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:05 pm

Not at all. I think the RAF will have set limits for low flying that they believe to be safe and attainable. Whether limits were being followed or not in this case I don't know and I have already stated that.

Clearly there is a balance between safety and the level at which the RAF require its pilots to have flying down to.

ColintheCaterpillar
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Re: Machloop ban

Post by ColintheCaterpillar » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:32 am

T_J wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:51 pm
The person who filmed it openly admitted on Twitter that she had a contact in the low flying booking system.
That could pretty much be any aircrew member/ops staff member in HM Forces who does low flying.

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Ghastly Whisper
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Re: Machloop ban

Post by Ghastly Whisper » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:07 am

ColintheCaterpillar wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:32 am
T_J wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:51 pm
The person who filmed it openly admitted on Twitter that she had a contact in the low flying booking system.
That could pretty much be any aircrew member/ops staff member in HM Forces who does low flying.
Which, if the Official Secrets act has been broken the person involved can get tracked back and prosecuted, although extremely unlikely.

This whole thing has a funny smell to it, like that wiff you get on a summers night, when moving too close to a herd of Bulls. Worse things than that video happen in the hills, so its not the real reason for a so called ban, theres something else, most if not all military pilots will admit to getting things wrong in the de-brief after landing, after all if you cant admit to getting things wrong how do you improve? have the RAF actually said anything? could they be moving away from low level flying?
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The Phantom
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Re: Machloop ban

Post by The Phantom » Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:58 am

Ghastly Whisper wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:07 am
have the RAF actually said anything? could they be moving away from low level flying?
That's an interesting thought. There's been lots of negative images being passed about on faceache and the media over the last couple of years. Maybe the RAF have had enough of it and the negative light it is portraying them in.
So maybe this is a trial separation..?

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Thunder
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Re: Machloop ban

Post by Thunder » Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:19 am

If they need to train for low level then they need to train, hardly think they are going to stop just because joe public post some pictures on the net. They may however move to a more suited geographical area, namely LFA14 Northern Scotland.

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Reptile 1
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Re: Machloop ban

Post by Reptile 1 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:37 am

There's a few things that went on that lead to the 'temporary ban' in the Loop

The Typhoon is classed as performing aerobatics below 4000ft which broke the rule.
The sh*t storm on twitter with the RAF tagged creating a negative coverage.
Initially the ban was 'Typhoon Force' only (2nd Typhoon Ban)
Screenshot of the Typhoon STANEVAL Document posted on Twitter (Official Sensitive)
Ban extended to all RAF assets.
All 4FTS flightplans changed to avoid the loop for the 'foreseeable future'.

Ban does not include USAF,Army and Navy assets.

The Loop needed a 'Hard Reset' and hopefully things will go back to normal at some point. And the guy is still on Typhoon, he just went behind a desk for a bit but if anyone knows any Typhoon Pilot they will know that most of the time they are behind a desk anyway. (Serviceable jets v Pilot Numbers)

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Mark
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Re: Machloop ban

Post by Mark » Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:01 am

ColintheCaterpillar wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:23 pm
Mark wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:51 pm
EGVP wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:43 pm
But there are no rules for what you can and cannot photograph and post online, if taken from a public footpath or farmer's field, with permission to access, of British military aircraft flying around Britain.
Correct, but there are Ramifications and repercussion's as seen by the cessation of flights through the loop. If someone gives you sound advise and the reasons why, then follow it and don't ruin it for the rest..
Mark,

This is a selfish attitude. What were the reasons she should have not shared the video? Were they associated with Flight Safety?
I assume so, it may be a selfish attitude, but its not my selfish attitude and the fallout quite clearly speaks for itself.

There were 2 parties in the wrong here. The Pilot for performing the climb out and the poster for publishing it despite public opinion regarding the potential ramifications...

Lets hope the MOD don't put a blanket ban on any armed forces personnel publishing anything work related on social media. A lot of us would be back to turning up on the off chance again like back in the day...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mark_holt_photography/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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