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Re: Red Arrows RAF Scampton air base to be sold off
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:43 am
by Agent K
A few points to add to the discussion above....
Woodbridge, given the hassle to even base a Spitfire there would be out completely, not an option.
Whilst talk of dispersed practice areas, sounds nice, don't forget that at each and every display, practice or real, there is a ground crew continegent, being some or all of Red 10, managers, filmers etc. etc. and given in winter/Spring practice they fly maybe 3 or more sorties a day, there would be not incosiderable logistics and cost and hassle in getting them to and from each display and back to the brifing room 3 times a day, or to provide modern technology at a suitable location with skype etc. briefing rooms and technology...... not quite as simple as it might appear!
Re: Red Arrows RAF Scampton air base to be sold off
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:14 pm
by Drinkmat
Basing the team at a station where other aircraft are used for training or operations puts a severe limit on what the existing based aircraft can do. In the "old" days, the Reds had six 30 minute display slots daily from Monday to Friday, where the airspace was 100% sterile to other aircraft. I confess to not knowing what the legal R313 requirements are nowadays.
In the 80's, this 6 x daily embargo applied, even if the Reds didn't fly and use a slot - the airspace was still sterile. In practical terms, this means that based aircraft can't take off, fly circuits, practice instrument or radar approaches or recover to land in each Reds slot time. This isn't "student" friendly in any way, and aircraft on operational tasking might not have the fuel to enable an early take-off to get ahead of a slot embargo, or to hold off on return until after the Reds have landed and the airspace is re-opened to mere mortals.
At airfields I've worked at, the Reds haven't been happy for aircraft to taxy out to the runway holding positions in order to prepare for departure, as they didn't want aircraft close to the runway. This meant that as a slot closed, about five minutes then elapsed before a fixed-wing aircraft could take off. At the start of a slot time, the Reds wanted the airspace cleared about five minutes prior to activation. Effectively, the 30 minute slot became 40 minutes.
The upshot is (from my experience) that the Reds were nice to look at, but who in their right minds wants them based with them, considering the disruption it will cause? They've been better received when they've been based alone.
Re: Red Arrows RAF Scampton air base to be sold off
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:09 pm
by f-4
Reactivate Cottesmore! Perfect location.
Re: Red Arrows RAF Scampton air base to be sold off
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:51 pm
by ColintheCaterpillar
Campbell89 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:02 am
ColintheCaterpillar wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:14 am
Snoop 95 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:57 am
Woodbridge! No other airfields close by and the North Sea within 1 mile to practice over. MoD have recently decided not to dispose of it (Rock Barracks as it is now called).
Single engined aircraft, sea... Bird risk!
Wouldn’t that be the case for Valley as well yet they still have the T2’s there.
Yes. But 99%(ish) of the Reds display practice flying is done at low level over said practice area, so a different level of risk involved!
Re: Red Arrows RAF Scampton air base to be sold off
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:56 pm
by ColintheCaterpillar
reaper493 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:14 am
With the proposed use of Scampton being for housing, R313 would cease to exist.
Mike
That’s a key question. Scampton’s a big site and although R313 is a big chunk of airspace (5nm radius, 9000ft altitude IIRC) it is only airspace. Depending on the land disposal and development plan it’s entirely feasible the airside area could be available for a decade or so to come before it disappears.
Whichever way, despite the inconvenience posed, I can’t see how they can end up being collocated with the airspace required. But technology is much better now.
Re: Red Arrows RAF Scampton air base to be sold off
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:05 pm
by Vulcan74
I think RAF Leeming is the main contender with the hawk T1 already there. I doubt it will be Waddington due to the lack of space. Wittering I may be wrong, but does not make sense, I doubt it will be Cranwell as they are to busy. But who knows what will happen!!
Re: Red Arrows RAF Scampton air base to be sold off
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:15 pm
by C24
Drinkmat
In the last eleven years of winter training the time between the morning and afternoon sorties has regularly been filled with KingAirs from RAF Cranwell doing circuit work, asymmetric approaches, occasional helicopter drop ins.
It was quite useful for practicing photography on something slow
Re: Red Arrows RAF Scampton air base to be sold off
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:10 pm
by dotwatcher01
With the Royal Air Force now run by second rate CPAs who couldn't get a job in industry, Wittering makes perfect sense. All the MoD has to do is buy a few NO PARKING signs and some traffic enforcement cameras and set them up on the A-1. Obv the Reds wont have the appeal of the PT, SC, SD etc SLUFs of blessed memory but with two or three practice sessions a day, the cameras connected to some cheap 4th world outsourcers, the money will flood in from the poor old motorists in their company Sierras (working for those same firms - see above). Very soon the MoD will have enough money to either retire some Generals or buy a bunch of aircraft more suited to be the pride of the Royal Air Force, the Hawk T2.
Re: Red Arrows RAF Scampton air base to be sold off
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:13 pm
by ColintheCaterpillar
C24 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:15 pm
Drinkmat
In the last eleven years of winter training the time between the morning and afternoon sorties has regularly been filled with KingAirs from RAF Cranwell doing circuit work, asymmetric approaches, occasional helicopter drop ins.
It was quite useful for practicing photography on something slow
More often than not though it was quite difficult to book into Scampton, certainly in the slower Tutor. It’s fine for the occasional aircraft in the circuit but there’s no way they could be integrated into a major training base.
Wittering may or may not be a major training base within the timeframe, depending on MFTS!
Re: Red Arrows RAF Scampton air base to be sold off
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:13 pm
by Vulcan74
Do we know what year they are looking to move to their new base?
Re: Red Arrows RAF Scampton air base to be sold off
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:27 pm
by Vulcanone
Simple answer its on the Ministry of Defence website
Re: Red Arrows RAF Scampton air base to be sold off
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:41 pm
by 22A
On BBC Lincolnshire news tonight, a high ranking officer (possibly retired) informed viewers too much operational flying from Waddington. The Reds could go there, but it's more likely to be Leeming or Wittering.
Re: Red Arrows RAF Scampton air base to be sold off
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:56 pm
by reheat module
22A wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:41 pm
On BBC Lincolnshire news tonight, a high ranking officer (possibly retired) informed viewers too much operational flying from Waddington. The Reds could go there, but it's more likely to be Leeming or Wittering.
The gentleman in question was Air Chief Marshal Sir Michael Graydon RAF (retd). I do believe he held the most senior position of Chief of Air Staff (CAS). Don't confuse the phrase retd with 'lack of influence', as his wealth of experience and knowledge, alongside that of others of current similar standing, 'may' be useful in any 'consultation' exercise.
Ultimately however, the decision will be made.
Re: Red Arrows RAF Scampton air base to be sold off
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:26 pm
by Ghost from above
There are severe cost Implications for new hangars, maintenance facilities and associated upgraded and new infrastructure such as taxiways.
This is because there is no spare capacity at Waddington.
RAF Leeming sounds a better option as they are set up for the hawk already.
Re: Red Arrows RAF Scampton air base to be sold off
Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:19 am
by C24
Hi Colinthecaterpillar,
Point taken, you should know. The empty slot of a couple of hours could have been filled given planning. In my option. Having said that, the down time due to poor weather probably meant that the Reds wanted some flexibility.
Idle speculation by someone Not in the know
Wittering would certainly save fuel in this overpopulated world.
Have a good day
No reply required
According to Karen Lee, MP for Lincoln, Tobias Ellwood, Defence minister, will make an announcement when the feasibility study for the 3 airfields has been completed. Report on Forces News this morning.
Patience folks
Re: Red Arrows RAF Scampton air base to be sold off
Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:35 pm
by Phoon
Ghost from above wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:26 pm
There are severe cost Implications for new hangars, maintenance facilities and associated upgraded and new infrastructure such as taxiways.
This is because there is no spare capacity at Waddington.
RAF Leeming sounds a better option as they are set up for the hawk already.
5 sqn Sentinals are scheduled to disband in 2021 according to SDR 2015, freeing up one of Waddington's C Type hangars and associated accommodation.
Re: Red Arrows RAF Scampton air base to be sold off
Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:37 pm
by Phoon
Drinkmat wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:14 pm
Basing the team at a station where other aircraft are used for training or operations puts a severe limit on what the existing based aircraft can do. In the "old" days, the Reds had six 30 minute display slots daily from Monday to Friday, where the airspace was 100% sterile to other aircraft. I confess to not knowing what the legal R313 requirements are nowadays.
In the 80's, this 6 x daily embargo applied, even if the Reds didn't fly and use a slot - the airspace was still sterile. In practical terms, this means that based aircraft can't take off, fly circuits, practice instrument or radar approaches or recover to land in each Reds slot time. This isn't "student" friendly in any way, and aircraft on operational tasking might not have the fuel to enable an early take-off to get ahead of a slot embargo, or to hold off on return until after the Reds have landed and the airspace is re-opened to mere mortals.
At airfields I've worked at, the Reds haven't been happy for aircraft to taxy out to the runway holding positions in order to prepare for departure, as they didn't want aircraft close to the runway. This meant that as a slot closed, about five minutes then elapsed before a fixed-wing aircraft could take off. At the start of a slot time, the Reds wanted the airspace cleared about five minutes prior to activation. Effectively, the 30 minute slot became 40 minutes.
The upshot is (from my experience) that the Reds were nice to look at, but who in their right minds wants them based with them, considering the disruption it will cause? They've been better received when they've been based alone.
How did they cope at Scampton pre 1995 when the Reds were collocated with CFS which was then a busy base with Bulldog and Tucano movements?
Re: Red Arrows RAF Scampton air base to be sold off
Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:53 pm
by reheat module
^^^^^^^
The Reds didn't have to cope at Scampton pre 95, - it was CFS which had to bend over backwards.
Once the Reds walked for their slots (ranging between 2-6 slots per day), CFS was basically grounded. The flying from JP 3/3A, 5, Bulldog and Tucano was prohibited, and if we had anything airborne, it was held off in an exclusion area or even diverted to Waddington or Cranwell. It was a far from ideal scenario, leading to frustration between parties at times, - believe me, I was on CFS between 88-92 and spent time doing journeys to recover aircraft which had landed away.
Re: Red Arrows RAF Scampton air base to be sold off
Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:51 pm
by NAM Updater
I'm reliably informed the Reds made an exception on 25th February 1994, when they held at RAF Scampton for the delivery of Saab Draken AR-107 from Karup Air Base. This aircraft was en route to the Newark Air Museum and we were extremely grateful for their patience!
Re: Red Arrows RAF Scampton air base to be sold off
Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:28 pm
by Vulcan74
I wonder when they will make the final decision then, this choice for 3 bases has not just happened overnight.