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Hawker Hunter crashed at Shoreham

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HP88
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Re: Hawker Hunter crashed at Shoreham

Post by HP88 » Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:03 pm

bizfreeq wrote:How exactly is the CAA reaction knee jerk? It is the most sensible course of action they could take under the circumstances. The type is grounded pending the outcome of the investigation and vintage jets are being limited to less strenuous maneuvers for the time being. They would be hung, drawn and quartered if they stood by and did nothing, and this is a well thought out and measured response. In fact it makes much more sense than some of the drivel being posted here and elsewhere. There are going to be consequences, there have to be, but they could have stopped vintage jets from appearing altogether for the rest of the season, or indeed, cancelled the rest of the show season........THAT and only that would have been knee jerk.
Spot on.

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1979bree
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Re: Hawker Hunter crashed at Shoreham

Post by 1979bree » Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:20 pm

KeithS wrote:Listen to some of you nit picking the details of the reporting, the truth is a tragedy occured and one that the majority of the UK public will see easily avoided by banning future airshows. Its impossible to argue against such opinion given the tradgies this year involving ex military jets. Like it or not no hobby should cost lives.

No Hobby should cost lives is correct. However, in the 60 yrs between this incident and the last Airshow accident to cause non participant fatalities, there have been over 100,000 innocents killed by motor vehicles.
Many road vehicle trips are not necessary and are undertaken for liesure purposes. Where are the calls for Non essential road vehicle use to be banned?
Lets get some perspective ..... 11 Tragic, awful deaths and 100,000 tragic awful deaths.
Yes we need to examine the reasons for the incident and take appropriate action to safeguard innocent bystanders but an outright ban is a ridiculous idea.

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thommg
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Re: Hawker Hunter crashed at Shoreham

Post by thommg » Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:45 pm

My condolences to everyone who may have been affected by this terrible disaster. My very best wishes to the pilot. I also hope that if there are any witnesses to this tragedy, whether reading this forum or not, who feel that it has been a traumatic experience, get advice. I say this as someone who has been treated for what the docs call "PTSD" and I left it too long before what was a very successful resolution to my problem. I agree with bizfreeq - it's only right and proper, and in my view respectful to those who died, that there is a pause to review safety and some interim restrictions. I believe the AAIB will look at this accident in tremendous detail and come up with their conclusions in the fullness of time. It will no doubt be subject to a substantial inquest by the West Sussex coroner, at some point, who will be free, after hearing from expert witnesses, to make any recommendations. In fact, coroners are required in certain circumstances to produce "prevention of future deaths" reports which are directed at the relevant authorities - in this case the CAA, who must respond. I think the likely outcome is that there will be changes to regulations in the long term. It's just so sad and awful.
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EGVP
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Re: Hawker Hunter crashed at Shoreham

Post by EGVP » Tue Aug 25, 2015 7:25 am

Key quotes from Mark Swan on BBC Breakfast just now:

"Vintage jet restrictions will remain in place for the foreseeable future"

"Interim review in to airshow safety from @UK_CAA by October, full review by end of the year."

"No, I've not had conversations with airshow organisers...this decision was taken with my own team of experts"

""We will not hesitate to introduce other highly restrictive measures if we feel that is the right thing to do"

ChrisSk
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Re: Hawker Hunter crashed at Shoreham

Post by ChrisSk » Tue Aug 25, 2015 3:46 pm

Unfortuneatley when an aircraft crashes its spectacular (in a media sense) but always tragic. The events are almost always being recorded and social networking goes into overdrive. The decisions made by the authorities which govern flying have to be seen to be proportionate. The CAA have done this. If they didn't the backlash could be greater. I've just been watching the news and the story of the Glasgow bin lorry was on. 6 killed and 15 injured. Just as tragic but no people screaming for bin lorries to be impounded. Families are greiving and the pilot is in a coma. I think some people need to put things into perspective here and stop worrying whether they are going to see a JP doing a loop the loop next year.

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Rich H
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Re: Hawker Hunter crashed at Shoreham

Post by Rich H » Tue Aug 25, 2015 4:25 pm

Two new CAA directives:

The first confirms the grounding of the Hunter: https://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SD2015003.pdf

The second provides further guidance on the display of vintage jets: https://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SN2015003Corrected.pdf

2 Action to be Taken

2.1 Until further notice, the CAA is restricting the operation of vintage jet aircraft at flying displays to flypast and associated positioning manoeuvres only. The associated positioning manoeuvres are restricted to low energy reversals.

2.2 This restriction applies to all overland displays in the UK. Flying displays over the sea remain unaffected provided that the Flying Display Director assesses and mitigates the risks associated with any third parties, including any vessels moored or transiting in the vicinity of the display line, before permitting high energy manoeuvres by vintage jet aircraft.

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Re: Hawker Hunter crashed at Shoreham

Post by TS010 » Tue Aug 25, 2015 6:34 pm

The Vulcan seems to be unaffected in the most part by the new CAA directive.
From the VTS email today; -
Yesterday, the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA), which regulates UK airspace and its users, imposed, with immediate effect, certain restrictions on displays by vintage jet aircraft at all airshows over land. High-energy aerobatics are, for the time being, no longer permitted.

Operations Director and Chief Pilot of the Vulcan to the Sky Trust, Martin Withers, has spoken to his contacts at the CAA, and has released this statement:

“I am pleased to report that I have received assurances from our contacts at the CAA that XH558's 2015 display routine is not classified as aerobatic, and so consequently, we are hoping to continue to fly on through XH558's last season with minimal changes to our display.”

EGVP
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Re: Hawker Hunter crashed at Shoreham

Post by EGVP » Tue Aug 25, 2015 7:18 pm

How the hell is it not aerobatic?! A power-climb and wingover cannot be seen as anything but, surely?!

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TankBuster
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Re: Hawker Hunter crashed at Shoreham

Post by TankBuster » Tue Aug 25, 2015 7:46 pm

EGVP wrote:How the hell is it not aerobatic?! A power-climb and wingover cannot be seen as anything but, surely?!
Probably should be discussed in the 558 forum? The CAA clearly don't see the Vulcan display as aerobatic, I guess they are more concerned about the small fast single engined jets which can loop, roll and fly upside down, and of course the Sea Vixen and Canberra which are also a bit more lively in the way of manoeuvres in the air.

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bizfreeq
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Re: Hawker Hunter crashed at Shoreham

Post by bizfreeq » Tue Aug 25, 2015 7:56 pm

The limitations are on high energy maneuvers which the Vulcan didn't really do much of. It does also state in their press release that they are hoping to continue with minimal changes to their display which would imply some tweaking is needed to comply with the CAA rule changes
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ramjet
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Re: Hawker Hunter crashed at Shoreham

Post by ramjet » Tue Aug 25, 2015 8:02 pm

Jonathan Whaley has just posted on Faceache, it's well worth a read

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_ ... n__=%2C%3B

Rog.

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TankBuster
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Re: Hawker Hunter crashed at Shoreham

Post by TankBuster » Tue Aug 25, 2015 8:05 pm

Keeping on the subject of the Hunter, the BBC aired a short interview with Chris Heames on the news this evening. For those who are not aware, Chris also flies the Hunter involved in this tragic event...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34054578

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TankBuster
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Re: Hawker Hunter crashed at Shoreham

Post by TankBuster » Wed Aug 26, 2015 12:49 pm

Just reported on the ITV lunchtime news that one of these so called experts claims that the Hunter was unusually sluggish as it was filmed taking off from North Weald on Saturday, using more runway than usual.

Maybe this 'expert' hadn't considered that the Hunter may have been carrying more fuel on board, which usually means using a bit more runway to get airborne, of course there was no mention of that being a possibility!
These 'experts' which the media feed on seem to offer nothing but negative comments about the Hunter, Idiots :grr: .

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Trenchard
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Re: Hawker Hunter crashed at Shoreham

Post by Trenchard » Wed Aug 26, 2015 1:05 pm

Bet he didn't think about the ambient air temperature either, 28 degrees Celsius has an effect as well.
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Re: Hawker Hunter crashed at Shoreham

Post by Blackcat1 » Wed Aug 26, 2015 3:56 pm

Where do they get these so called experts from!!!!!???
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Re: Hawker Hunter crashed at Shoreham

Post by Supra » Wed Aug 26, 2015 4:07 pm

I despair! Take one numpty with a mobile, show the images to a self proclaimed 'expert' & feed the cocktail (or maybe Cock tale??) to the Media for an injection of conspiracy! Forget the High air temperature/ lack of density, being Fuel heavy for the transit to Shoreham, Hold, Display & Rtb with divert-reserve, PLUS any 'real' expert would have noticed the litter/FOD at minute 1:34 & 2.35 which was blowing at c.90 deg' to the runway in use! :whistle:
Now, I'm not an expert on Aircraft Carriers, but I know they turn them into wind for additional airflow = lift ?? ;)

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Blue Diamond
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Re: Hawker Hunter crashed at Shoreham

Post by Blue Diamond » Wed Aug 26, 2015 4:21 pm

Blackcat1 wrote:Where do they get these so called experts from!!!!!???
Either the gutter or the lunatic asylum.
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the concerned
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Re: Hawker Hunter crashed at Shoreham

Post by the concerned » Wed Aug 26, 2015 9:41 pm

I do see future airshows that have a close proximity to a major road having serious problems.

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Richard B
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Re: Hawker Hunter crashed at Shoreham

Post by Richard B » Wed Aug 26, 2015 10:09 pm

the concerned wrote:I do see future airshows that have a close proximity to a major road having serious problems.
Duxford as to be one of the worst, they have had a good few mishaps also over the years.
have they been lucky. The M11 is one very busy road.

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Re: Hawker Hunter crashed at Shoreham

Post by KeithS » Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:51 am

TankBuster wrote:Just reported on the ITV lunchtime news that one of these so called experts claims that the Hunter was unusually sluggish as it was filmed taking off from North Weald on Saturday, using more runway than usual.

Maybe this 'expert' hadn't considered that the Hunter may have been carrying more fuel on board, which usually means using a bit more runway to get airborne, of course there was no mention of that being a possibility!
These 'experts' which the media feed on seem to offer nothing but negative comments about the Hunter, Idiots :grr: .

TankBuster
Perhaps they should have sought your expertise?

Remember they are reporters reporting to the general public, who lets face it aren't interested in the ifs, buts and maybes, they want to see it never happen again.

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