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Sunday Express - Red Arrows could fly F-16s

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Sunday Express - Red Arrows could fly F-16s

Post by Gary » Sat Oct 11, 2014 11:28 pm

Was watching Sky's press preview and this work of fiction caught my eye :lol: :lol: :lol:

Red Arrows could be replaced by second-hand American jets to keep them flying on the cheap

THE Red Arrows could fly in secondhand American jets if suggestions by a senior RAF officer are taken up by the Ministry of Defence.


Image
F-16 combat aircraft that could be flown in for the Red Arrows[GETTY]

As the squadron’s British Hawk jets near the end of their working lives, the officer responsible for training aircrew has suggested they could be replaced by US-built F-16 Falcons. The move would allow the Government to fulfil its promise to keep the Red Arrows flying on the cheap.

However, aviation experts last night criticised the plans, saying replacing Hawk T1 jets with a US version would damage the image of the Red Arrows as a British display team. The squadron, which celebrates its 50th anniversary this year, needs to replace its ageing aircraft by 2020.

That means the MoD has 12 months to choose a new model. Delays over finding an alternative have led to fears that the squadron could be axed as part of the defence cuts since many in the ministry think they are an expensive luxury.

One contender, already being used by the RAF in a training role, would be the Hawk’s successor, the T2. Now, however, Lt Commander Tim Flatman, the Commanding Officer of 736 Naval Air Squadron which trains pilots for the Fleet Air Arm, has entered the fray, saying that defence chiefs should consider the F-16.

In an article for AirForces Monthly, Lt Cdr Flatman said: “The out of service date is only six years away and the requirement to fi nd a replacement is ongoing. As yet no decision has been made but there are several options being evaluated. We could have some Hawk T2s. There is also the possibility of buying some older F-16s.”

F-16s have been used by America’s Thunderbirds Air Demonstration Squadron since 1982 and the option might prove too tempting to resist for cash-strapped defence chiefs. The Sunday Express has learnt that the Danish air force hopes to replace 30 of its F-16s with a new combat jet, possibly the £60million RAF Typhoon.

Image
The Red Arrows Aerobatic Team performing at the RAF Waddington Airshow [STEVE HILL]

The Danes are understood to be keen to replace their F-16s by 2020, the same year that the Red Arrows’ Hawks are due to be replaced. It is believed the aircraft could be purchased from the Danish air force for about £18million each, a relatively cheap option for a combat jet.

One military source said: “The F-16 would be a real boost for the Red Arrows. It is a fantastic looking aircraft and can fly at supersonic speeds. The Danish aircraft are quite old ... but the very fact this is now being discussed within the MoD is great news for the Red Arrows.”

However, aviation expert Elizabeth Quintana, of the Royal United Services Institute, said: “The whole point about the Red Arrows is that they represent Britain abroad. “They show the skills of British pilots, certainly, but also showcase British engineering.

“The message that buying F-16s would send is that F-16s are better than Hawk T2s. They may be cheaper to buy but they would be older. It would be like buying a second-hand car.” Her views were echoed by Air Cdre Andrew Lambert, who served in Iraq.

He said: “This is a ridiculous idea. Red Arrow Hawks are currently available for both training and a war role. If we bought the F-16s, it would be much more diffi cult and expensive to convert them to a war role.”

The MoD said: “The out of service date for the Hawk TMk1 is currently 2020, which offers plenty of time to consider replacement options but a decision has yet to be made.”

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Re: Sunday Express - Red Arrows could fly F-16s

Post by Vulcanone » Sun Oct 12, 2014 2:08 am

The only replacement for a Hawk is........ A Hawk and the sooner the Muppets figure that out the better

Labour apparently cannot say the Reds are safe if they get back into power. :ninja:

Frankly I would sooner vote for Satan than for the Wallace and Gromit CND halfwits

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Re: Sunday Express - Red Arrows could fly F-16s

Post by markranger » Sun Oct 12, 2014 6:50 am

In AFM last month there was an article about navy hawks needing replacing And an order of Hawk T2s or second hand F16s was mentioned in that.
Logical would of course be hawk T2s but you never know....
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Re: Sunday Express - Red Arrows could fly F-16s

Post by Fighterfoto » Sun Oct 12, 2014 7:45 am

The idea comes from a Navy SO1 who is no doubt concerned that his fleet of T1s may be pillaged to keep the Reds going. Being Navy and of a rank where he has no influence in any such decision on what platform the Reds get in future means his comments are irrelevant.

More likely T2 as IV has been running under capacity for some time.

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Re: Sunday Express - Red Arrows could fly F-16s

Post by XPLUMBER » Sun Oct 12, 2014 7:56 am

Just checked the date and it appears to be the 12th of October......................






















.........................NOT the 1st of April!
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Re: Sunday Express - Red Arrows could fly F-16s

Post by 2e1var » Sun Oct 12, 2014 8:24 am

Gary wrote:Was watching Sky's press preview and this work of fiction caught my eye :lol: :lol: :lol:


“The message that buying F-16s would send is that F-16s are better than Hawk T2s.

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Re: Sunday Express - Red Arrows could fly F-16s

Post by sploosher » Sun Oct 12, 2014 8:24 am

I`m sorry, but as good as the F16 is, it should NEVER replace the Hawk, :grr:

the Red Arrows are all about being British..................... :clap:
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Re: Sunday Express - Red Arrows could fly F-16s

Post by C24 » Sun Oct 12, 2014 8:25 am

As there is a current production run of T2s for the RAAF, it could be assumed that no-one has yet scrapped any of the equipment need to continue manufacture.
It should be easier to develop the type into a 'T3' version for front line use as a ground attack aircraft in place of the big jobbers being used in Far Off Places (and soon in Northern England ).
A continued source of new airframes and spares would be available for years with upgrades to better materials as they become available.
Money could then be used to upgrade weapon systems, not airframes.
Produce two seat versions so that the back-seater can operate UAVs if design progresses that far.

Fantasy over, well, almost, we should operate UAVs from the new carrier until the F35B are delivered.
(I read that there is over 28 million lines of computer code used in the A version systems)
Why not purchase USMC AV-8s?
And base them at RAF Cott.......?
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Re: Sunday Express - Red Arrows could fly F-16s

Post by page_verify » Sun Oct 12, 2014 8:30 am

I think it goes without saying that the Reds will fairly soon be completely sponsored by the relevant parts of British industry, if they're not already just look at their sponsors page now, so will always fly the goods of he who pays the bills.
I've just read their current page, and 24 companies are corporate sponsors of the Reds right now. I can't seen BAE or Rolls Royce allowing F-16s to wear their logos while on an "air show tour of the Middle East" etc.

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Re: Sunday Express - Red Arrows could fly F-16s

Post by kristianrj » Sun Oct 12, 2014 8:52 am

Ridiculous to think they'll equip on a unique type, especially one as complex as the F-16. I doubt the public will tolerate a complete canning of the Reds - if I was betting I'd say they'll turn into a 4 or at best a 6 ship of T.2s - best enjoy the full 9 ship team while we can I think :(

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Re: Sunday Express - Red Arrows could fly F-16s

Post by Sparts99 » Sun Oct 12, 2014 10:33 am

F-16s are so obviously a non-starter, but what I really wouldn't want to see is the Reds flying Tucanos when the Hawk T1s have to go, it has to be T2s.
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Re: Sunday Express - Red Arrows could fly F-16s

Post by paullangford » Sun Oct 12, 2014 10:36 am

KAI T-50 Golden Eagle ?.............it's like an F16.........but it's a trainer.

Don't think it will happen, but given the state of the people who make these decisions, ......they'll probably go for Tucano's..........or Tutors

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Re: Sunday Express - Red Arrows could fly F-16s

Post by gamecock » Sun Oct 12, 2014 11:01 am

Apparently the original article only discusses the replacement of the Hawk T1 as a fleet, it's only the Daily Express who have linked this proposal to the Reds.

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Re: Sunday Express - Red Arrows could fly F-16s

Post by chrisfg1 » Sun Oct 12, 2014 11:02 am

I think that the Reds T1s will be replaced in the future by T2s but that's not before every ounce of life has been exhausted from the T1s. I'm also sure that some painful defence budget slashing will be made elsewhere to pay for the upgrade.

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Re: Sunday Express - Red Arrows could fly F-16s

Post by thorny1a » Sun Oct 12, 2014 11:33 am

What a crazy newspaper article!!

In the AFM interview there was no mention of the Red Arrows! It was purley speculation about what could / should replace the current T1 Hawks of 736 NAS.
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Re: Sunday Express - Red Arrows could fly F-16s

Post by Agent K » Sun Oct 12, 2014 1:11 pm

I do detest this kind of poor and amateur reporting. It's a statement made by nobody in a position of authority or influence or in the decision chain yet is portrayed as a valid suggestion. It's no difference to me suggesting to my directorate at the airline I work for that we should use second hand A340's. They will listen to me as much as the MOD will in this naval officers comment.

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Re: Sunday Express - Red Arrows could fly F-16s

Post by Blackcat1 » Sun Oct 12, 2014 1:38 pm

Replacing in 6 years!? the way the world is at the moment there wont be a world in 6 years well maybe an IS run world!!
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Re: Sunday Express - Red Arrows could fly F-16s

Post by Andy_99 » Sun Oct 12, 2014 1:48 pm

Sorry but the Reds just have to fly British Aircraft they are after all a showcase for our aircraft industry abroad.
So T2's it has to be as a logical choice. I suppose at a push they could go with older Typhoons - although a Euro consortium it's still showcasing some of our prowess at making aircraft.

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Re: Sunday Express - Red Arrows could fly F-16s

Post by Rainbow 6 » Sun Oct 12, 2014 3:36 pm

Dont think they can have Hawk T-2 as the current ones arent owned by the RAF, so a new order would have to be placed which I am sure would breach some deal with BAe Systems. Dont think they will have Typhoon's either due to the cost of the airframe and the cost per flight hour of £50,000+ assuming that from wheels up to wheels hitting the tarmac is about 30 mins each show would cost £50,000 / 2 * 9 = £225,000 it costs about £9 million to operate the Red arrows at the min, the maths just dont add up. Or about 40 displays a year this would include practice shows as well.

The painful truth is that something like this maybe the only way forward, after all 100 sqn and the Navy who also operate Hawk T-1's are also going to need a replace their Hawks with something unless you are going to be have it go out to the private sector?
Think the question is what would you rather have if Hawk T-2 isnt an option: -
1 No Red Arrows at all
2 Red Arrows flying Shorts/ Embraer Tucano {which at the end of the day Brazilian}
3 Red Arrows Flying F-16's
4 Red Arrows Flying Tranch 1 Typhoons {but doing 1/3 as many shows}
5 Something different

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Re: Sunday Express - Red Arrows could fly F-16s

Post by centaurus18 » Sun Oct 12, 2014 3:51 pm

thorny1a wrote:What a crazy newspaper article!!

In the AFM interview there was no mention of the Red Arrows! It was purley speculation about what could / should replace the current T1 Hawks of 736 NAS.
Correct. Nothing story.
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