FighterControl

Sorry if this has been covered before. My Son was asking about use of Flares at Airshows? Allowed at Yeovilton(Belgium F16),but not FIA/RIAT. What are the regulations regarding these? Thanks for any help

So there is no facility to handle flares on Sat/Sun for Solo Turk at Waddington but there was on Thursday?

Tigercat - just wondering why you say there are no facilities to handle live ordnance? Isn't Fairford a B-2 dispersal airfield?

Steven.

StevenNFFC wrote:Tigercat - just wondering why you say there are no facilities to handle live ordnance? Isn't Fairford a B-2 dispersal airfield?

Steven.

Yes, but when the B-2s would be there with live ordnance, there wouldn't be thousands of spectators also on the airfield.

I imagine 'history' also has a part to play regarding the non-use of flares at Fairford.
I know of at least one instance of a flare landing within the crowd...

Arthur

I seem to recall the Russian Navy Il-38 popped a few flares on departure from RIAT in 1996. Which started a grass fire on the airfield. That is (I believe the primary concern) as for why they don't do it at Waddington.

The Israelis got a polite thanks but we don't do that after they did it on the practice on Thursday, way back in 2001. I believe Solo Turk may have been told similar. And there was the story that the storage facility at the bottom end of Wadd as in use at the time the Israelis were here. Not that it was ever confirmed????

I think its also down to not having the relavant weapons personnel during RIAT, as its not fully operational (ie lots of US service personnel) during the show.

TS

Must admit I hadn't heard about the May.

I do however recall the Czech Hind whose flare landed in a punter's sandwich box!

(Apparently the owner of said sandwich box was not bothered - and politely asked if he could keep the remains of the flare!)

Arthur

KyleG wrote:

StevenNFFC wrote:Tigercat - just wondering why you say there are no facilities to handle live ordnance? Isn't Fairford a B-2 dispersal airfield?

Steven.

Yes, but when the B-2s would be there with live ordnance, there wouldn't be thousands of spectators also on the airfield.

I'm fully aware of that, Kyle as I am not an idiot. What I was asking was that he said there were "no facilities". Obviously Fairford has the facilities so surely it is the location of these facilities that is the issue?

Steven.

The MAA regulations allow flares to be released at UK military displays, the issue is the safety distances once the aircraft are on the ground. In the UK (not in Europe or most of the rest of the world - RIAT operate to UK military regulations) aircraft loaded with flares are considered to be live armed and then the 200m safety distance comes into play; there are no places at Waddington or Fairford where you could put the safety distance in place without taking out much needed parking space.

S

I believe Waddington prohibits flares due to the fact that display acts overfly the E.S.A hence risk of fire is deemed to great.
I had been told that when solo turk used flare on practice day that personnel in said area were not pleased at all by the surprise they received.

StevenNFFC wrote:

KyleG wrote:

StevenNFFC wrote:Tigercat - just wondering why you say there are no facilities to handle live ordnance? Isn't Fairford a B-2 dispersal airfield?

Steven.

Yes, but when the B-2s would be there with live ordnance, there wouldn't be thousands of spectators also on the airfield.

I'm fully aware of that, Kyle as I am not an idiot. What I was asking was that he said there were "no facilities". Obviously Fairford has the facilities so surely it is the location of these facilities that is the issue?

Steven.

Yes, that's correct, and I never meant to infer you were an idiot...

markw38 wrote:I believe Waddington prohibits flares due to the fact that display acts overfly the E.S.A hence risk of fire is deemed to great.
I had been told that when solo turk used flare on practice day that personnel in said area were not pleased at all by the surprise they received.

Thought the solo turk was told to release the flares as it was deemed safer then to have them removed and stored.

I didn't realise it would cause such a debate.

At Waddington we did not know that Solo Turk included flares during his display (not on the ribbon diagram or text explanation of the display profile). Once flares were released they were stopped for subsequent displays and the flares on the aircraft downloaded and stored until the aircraft departed. Overflight of the ESA is not the issue as a safety case could be produced for release of the flares ie the aircraft has an upwards vector, not below a certain height and under agreed wind conditions - I assisted in producing such a case for the Dutch F-16 at Sunderland a few years ago). As indicated earlier the problem is while the aircraft is on the ground and the required safety distances (unfortunately Waddington is fairly limited for parking space on the live side of the airfield during the display days and putting a 200m exclusion zone around an aircraft with flares would take up a lot of real estate).

S

I used to wear flares at airshows in the 70s with no problems.

So what you're saying SATCO is, Waddington had an armed a/c on the apron and ATC nor Crash crews were aware of it?

willow70 wrote:I used to wear flares at airshows in the 70s with no problems.

And I best people stayed 200m away from you then too!

So what you're saying SATCO is, Waddington had an armed a/c on the apron and ATC nor Crash crews were aware of it?

We don't have an apron as such, they were in a dispersal area and at that time most of the personnel near the aircraft were Turkish AF engineers and aircrew. ATC nor the crash crews were aware the aircraft were armed with flares (as indicated in the rest of the world they would not be considered to be armed) as we had not been told. Once the flares were released the relevant personnel on the station were informed and the remaining flares were unloaded from the spare aircraft and stored in the ESA.

I do wonder how often non-UK military aircraft armed with flares operate from other airfields without the airfield operators knowing, the USAF routinely have flares fitted to their transport fleet and if you ask them if they are armed they will reply 'no' as they don't consider flares to be an armament.

S