Another close call (Typhoon at Waddington)

[graham luxton]

According to Flight Information Publications there are two things which pilots should be aware of when landing on Runway20 at Waddington:

1) Unexpected turbulence in the final stages of the approach when there is a strong Westerly wind.

2)High sided vehicles crossing the approach either jumping a red light or in the event of a traffic light failure.

Perhaps they should add a third - spotters on stepladders!

[Mayfly]

It would be interesting to see the Typhoon landing configuration, all a/c differ. I know the Vulcan uses a 3deg glide slope for instance and given it's size often makes it look low - passenger carrying a/c are in a different class and use different parameters.

I know in general the RAF say that unused runway behind you is runway wasted. Perhaps the airfields you mention Rich have inset thresholds?

I guess they checked the fences just to be on the safe side with lots of other types arriving it may depend on what their angle of sight was, perspective is strange thing.

[RichC]

Thanks Mayfly.
I have been looking on Google Earth at the runway configurations of each airfield.
Yeovilton does not have any "touchdown" markings, it only has a threshold marking and a very short (75ft) displaced threshold. So in essence, those that landed on or close to the grass at Yeovilton were indeed landing on the displaced threshold and so that is, i assume, not right. It's displaced with arrows pointing to the threshold markings and start of the runway.

At Waddington, it just has threshold markings and it does have a touchdown marking 380m from the threshold, i guess for the larger types, no displaced as is the case with Coningsby. Both have a lip of asphalt before the threshold markings but no displaced markings however Coningsby has no touchdown markings either, similar to Yeovilton.

If you look at Waddington, there are tyre marks right at the start, even before threshold markings just 28ft from the grass. The majority of FJ touchdown marks start at approx 250ft from the grass. Interestingly, at the other end, there is a yellow chevron area which is prohibited to land on and the tyre marks are approx 250ft from the threshold so they only seem to land like this on the A15 end.

Found an interest discussion pprune here about the no markings at RAF airfields
http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-367194.html

[nickowen]

Wise words there from Jem and others.

I've been keeping out of this thread, but coincidentally we had a very similar landing incident at our strip on Wednesday evening which sadly resulted in an accident, with the aeroplane clipping the hedge and ending up on its back on the threshold. Both crew got out, but with head and neck injuries, the latter mercifully not limb-threatening, but neither they nor the aeroplane (which is a total loss) will be coming to France with us next weekend.

Granted this was a very small aeroplane with a 100hp engine, but if anybody had been standing by the hedge anywhere near the centreline, they would have been decapitated.

Please don't lurk in the undershoot.

Nick

[Mike]

Wise words there from Jem and others.

I've been keeping out of this thread, but coincidentally we had a very similar landing incident at our strip on Wednesday evening which sadly resulted in an accident, with the aeroplane clipping the hedge and ending up on its back on the threshold. Both crew got out, but with head and neck injuries, the latter mercifully not limb-threatening, but neither they nor the aeroplane (which is a total loss) will be coming to France with us next weekend.

Granted this was a very small aeroplane with a 100hp engine, but if anybody had been standing by the hedge anywhere near the centreline, they would have been decapitated.

Please don't lurk in the undershoot.

Nick

Well said Nick, I can honestly say that in almost 50 years of spotting and aviation photography I have never stood in the undershoot area of any airfield that I've ever visited. That includes St. Maarten by the way, I stood behind and to the right hand side of the outboard starboard engine of a Corsair 747 there once on full take-off power and that was utterly frightening - I could hardly breathe, I actually bottled it and sprinted !

As for arrivals at St. Maarten, I sat in the Sunset Beach Bar and watched and photographed the nutters on the beach within the undershoot area waving at the incoming aircraft. One day there will be a major disaster there - they have never heard about Health & Safety at the end of the runway, there's no lights (like at Waddington), just no restrictions whatsoever !

For some strange reason a GAF Transall landed while we were there, Anyone know why it was there ?

[Mike]

Look-out for the dodgy looking geezer with the hat

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-li ... e-23296285

[nickowen]

For some strange reason a GAF Transall landed while we were there, Anyone know why it was there ?

Saw the crowd at the fence and mistook it for Ballenstedt?

[flyingslug_0]

In my humble opinion, I've watched the video a few times now. I think I can see the aircraft drop 10-15 feet on the approach, this could be caused by air pockets. Flying low over very hot fields can cause this, plus thermals. Windshear could be another reason, but there wasn't much wind that day. I think I can see the pilot correct the drop by a little bit of power. This arrests the drop but keeps the aircraft at angle that is slightly lower and "flatter". I can only assume the pilot has assessed his rate of descent and made a judgment to allow him to clear the fence and maintain his spot he has chosen to land at.

When I was learning to fly, I was taught never to land before the "keyboards” I’ve seen many a FJ land before them and have always been surprised by this.

To answer the original question, I can only add my opinion. I think the reason why they do this is tactical, land as soon as you can and get off the runway, maybe there was an intersection he needed to meet, maybe he was practicing a low fast approach for a reason. I think why he landed by the caravan was simply a question of kinetic energy, his forward momentum took him to that point. Maybe one of the FJ guys that are members on this site can clarify.

Personally I've stood directly under the flight path at CBY, only once mind you and didn't like the experience.

As for locking the thread.... if it stays on topic I can't see why not.

[Zeb]

Look-out for the dodgy looking geezer with the hat

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-li ... e-23296285

Link already posted;
http://fightercontrol.co.uk/forum/viewt ... 60#p517899

[benji1867]

Id just like to add that calling people who choose to do something you don't agree on is a little narrow minded. I have been under the threshold at various places and i did so at my own discretion and knowing the risks, im not certain that would class me as an idiot. Its like me saying whoever doesn't go under the threshold is very boring, they arn't boring, its just their choice. Remember, were all different.

Ben

[POL]

Certain things are idiotic though; standing under the underrun for a runway is, standing on the outside of a blind bend on a rally circuit is, etc.

[Topol-M]

It can't be a coincidence that the new minimum height on talkdown procedure is now 210ft(up from 200) for the low approach or to land. This has been instigated in the last couple days this week at Leuchars!

This wouldn't affect this out, minimum height for the procedure is decision height - land or go around. Valley's height changes a lot, 200, 320 etc depending on factors.

The Air Traffic Controller specifically asked the typhoon pilot in the radar pattern if he was aware of the new standard minimum height for the procedure.

Correct. The DH is decided on the height of structures within a certain distance of the approach/runway. Each runway has it's own minima. Unless the fence is ten feet higher at Leuchars now, the fence doesn't mean anything to this new procedure. I shall repeat this is a minima for the procedure. Each pilot has their own qualifications which could increase the DH, it will never be reduced

As for landing "short", its happened for years - many many years. The problem is, there's more people photographing, videoing, youtubing etc etc etc, all trying to get their one minute of fame, so it appears its happening more than ever. I had to inspect runway approach lights on many an occasion in the past

Eurofighters, Rafales (the more modern jets) quite often don't have any reverse thrust or super huge brakes (with most having a final emergency chute) so they need runway to stop in. What they do have are arrestor hooks. I can only guess that they land short (or should I say - spot on the end of the runway) to give themselves enough time to deploy the hook before the first cable (if it's up) should something go wrong on landing. If they miss this, they have the second cable at the far end (if they manage to trundle down that far)

The aircraft are also slicker than they used to be, they need a higher angle of attack to show more aircraft to drag to actually slow themselves down. I would suspect this gives a reduced view of the runway to the pilot especially as they're in an angled seat to assist with G-forces

[blakey]

there is a mark where the landing gear went through the grass

Or someones gardening shears from the day before

[C24]

Another interesting thread. to pick up on some comments

In my opinion, the pilot misjudged his approach, plain & simple; most people who commented here have never flown in, let alone landed a fastjet. The 'piano keys' are placed in position for a normal safe approach/landing.
Note for pilots, please do not bend your aeroplane - we pay towards its upkeep.
[back to trimming the hedge! mine, that is!]

[DaveChapman]

I was the guy in the white shirt to the left of the runway,I stopped when I saw his approach as it looked very low,he was only a few feet at best from clatting the hedge and there was an older couple who were sat in their chairs directly below who ended up on the floor.
I chatted with "Stealth117"nearby who is on FC and shortly after,military personel came out to check the fence etc so it didnt go unoticed(Martin has a great pic of it btw)also I think Flyingslug has a shot of it from the P&V and its hard to tell wether it did actually hit the tarmac or grass,a close call all round.o
As for the reasons behind it who knows but he was very low all the way through on finals so perhaps it was a calculated event,either way imo it was a bit of a stupid thing to
do and absolutely no need for it given the risk to all
Cheers Dave.

The STUPID BIT was you standing anywhere near the threshold,
even train spotters aren't that mental enough to stand on the inside of a crossing when an express goes through!...

I was walking back to my car which was in P&V having been on the old dispersals past the Vulcan,so calling me Stupid is a bit of a strange one,I stopped in my tracks as I saw it approaching,as I originally said then when it past continued to my car,by your thinking perhaps they should re-route the A15 in case a car jumps the lights.
Thanks for being strange
Dave x

[iainpeden]

If they went back to a sensible height of fence (3 feet) and no hedge this debate probably wouldn't be going on.

[Rotörhead]

If they went back to a sensible height of fence (3 feet) and no hedge this debate probably wouldn't be going on.

Yep, I'm sure that would stop all photographers from standing under the approach... And lets not forget the protesters, I'm sure they'd be thrilled if it had a 3 foot fence!

[Topol-M]

Another interesting thread. to pick up on some comments

In my opinion, the pilot misjudged his approach, plain & simple; most people who commented here have never flown in, let alone landed a fastjet. The 'piano keys' are placed in position for a normal safe approach/landing.
Note for pilots, please do not bend your aeroplane - we pay towards its upkeep.
[back to trimming the hedge! mine, that is!]

Wrong

The piano keys are placed at the beginning of the runway to indicate where the landing part of the runway begins, the landing zone is normally past that point and has it's own indications. That's why the glide slope of an ILS isn't at the end of the runway and is approx. 500ft further down

[RichC]

This is the main point of my original post.
The markings are there at the threshold so why are some aircraft landing before it and my second concern was not the people standing under the approach, that's up to them and have their own decisions but the fact the typhoon was so damn close to the hedge/fence and literally a couple of feet from total disaster (anyone who says it wasn't isn't thinking clearly).
I am baffled how the RAF can come out with a statement of "It was normal". Since when is being a few feet from a hedge at 130+mph or whatever they approach at, normal? It's irrelevant that other aircraft/pilots have done it before, clearly they have been in the wrong too....especially those that have hit it which people are clearly comparing this to and saying its quite normal. Hitting hedges/fences isn't normal, it's not normal to do it in a car when going when a corner and it's not normal for a boat to smash into a quay so how the hell is it normal for a Typhoon to either "just miss" the hedge or other aircraft to "hit it"?

[Focal_Plane]

Give it up for goodness sake !