Machloop ban

[Mark]

Mark wrote "There were 2 parties in the wrong here. The Pilot for performing the climb out and the poster for publishing it despite public opinion regarding the potential ramifications..."

Regards the second comment, the ramification only happened after the video was posted. You could also raise the issue of the Turk (if I remember) F16 at Waddington coming in too low; not a massive outcry despite the possible endangerment to life.

There are traffic lights on the road crossing the final approach to Waddington to mitigate that kind of eventuality though...

[ChrisCwmbran]

Mark wrote "There were 2 parties in the wrong here. The Pilot for performing the climb out and the poster for publishing it despite public opinion regarding the potential ramifications..."

Regards the second comment, the ramification only happened after the video was posted. You could also raise the issue of the Turk (if I remember) F16 at Waddington coming in too low; not a massive outcry despite the possible endangerment to life.

There are traffic lights on the road crossing the final approach to Waddington to mitigate that kind of eventuality though...

The trouble is, if you extend that argument Mark, the logical conclusion is that given the fast jet activity perhaps the Loop is not safe for photographers.

[C24]

2019, another year of controversial threads. Whoopee!

I've just watched the video three times, read the thread twice, I think that I understand what everyone is on about.

Just my thoughts & comments.

If the pilot was on his own, he was a Dillon of the First Water. If the Typhoon was two up, he is a double Dillon and probably has one less friend.

I cannot think why Debbie should not post the video. It shows that everyone has poor judgement at sometime during their life.

If the pilot has been taken off flying, then heaven help us should we be involved in a another conflict. He is probably a better pilot now than he was just before he almost embedded himself in the hill.

The incident could be a clear example of the low flying training given to our pilots. He missed the ground and the feeling of " Oops! that was close! " that he must have felt would have registered forever in his brain and was realistic training never to be found on a simulator.
The rolls during the climb out must have been due to a survival/survived that one, reflex.

My vote goes to him and Debbie.

E&OE

[baz1]

and not forgetting the Tyhoon low app over the fence

[Agent K]

Of course if he'd been flying a newer and better equipped aircraft, i.e. the Tornado he'd have hit the TFR button and none of this nonsense would have happened.......

[Mark]

Mark wrote "There were 2 parties in the wrong here. The Pilot for performing the climb out and the poster for publishing it despite public opinion regarding the potential ramifications..."

Regards the second comment, the ramification only happened after the video was posted. You could also raise the issue of the Turk (if I remember) F16 at Waddington coming in too low; not a massive outcry despite the possible endangerment to life.

There are traffic lights on the road crossing the final approach to Waddington to mitigate that kind of eventuality though...

The trouble is, if you extend that argument Mark, the logical conclusion is that given the fast jet activity perhaps the Loop is not safe for photographers.

How the hell would they Police that given they don't even have the man power to attend a burglary??

I would imagine (and i'm no air safety expert) that even with the new airshow restrictions there is still a possibility of endangerment to life, yet we still attend in droves!!

The loop probably isn't classed as safe in any respect given that its a fast jet training area even if it is in a national park..

[ChrisCwmbran]

I didn't suggest that they could or should police it.

I just suggested it was the ultimate conclusion from your comment about traffic lights.

I don't know if the land belongs to farmers, or the government so I can't really comment. I'm sure it could be made much harder to do though if they wanted to.

[Thunder]

The answer to over influx of people in the Mach loop is to move away from what is in fact a congestion point for a/c, anything going into LFA 7 more or less goes through the "loop". Move the majority of low level stuff into LFA14 and due to the geographical size and remoteness of it you will not have the same conflict between people and a/c.

The problem at Waddington wasn't traffic on the A15, it was the so called I think I know better enthusiasts and I haven't got a clue public(separate the two if you can) fouling the undershoot, so leave the poor traffic lights alone, they did their job perfectly well.

As for the Mach loop Typhoon pilot now being a better pilot, I highly much doubt it. He had no regards for the rules, the taxpayers a/c or indeed himself/family/friends and with that doesn't deserve to hold a Queens Commission. What makes it worse is the fact that over the last few years several crew/s have been caught out in the loop(remember the "I'm with stupid" saga), so I would imagine that all crews are reminded during training and fairly regular afterwards that "the hills have eyes".

Amazes me on this forum that when someone posts a video of an Ukrainian pilot flying a SU24 or an Argentinian pilot flying a IA-63 Pampa at stupid levels, they and their force are tarred as unprofessional and a disgrace to other aircrew, however when it's the RAF he is likened to a naughty schoolboy just up to high jinks.

[DJ17]

Unfortunately, we've not heard the pilot's side of the story.

[Thunder]

Do we need to, it's all on camera.

[DJ17]

Guilty then?

[ChrisCwmbran]

I don't think its a judgement for us to pass.

The only people we need judge are those enthusiasts who responded very badly to the posting....

[Gus0898uk]

Had Tornado's used to fly through the Mach Loop in darkness using Terrain Following Radar? If so it must have been somewhat scary, I did read once about vehicles being higher than aircraft using TFR, but I am not sure if this was the Loop.

[Thunder]

Guilty then?

If you see the video then yes guilty of breaking the rules. Too low, just about takes himself out on the low ridge line, goes vertical, then not one or two but at least four rolls in the vertical.

[Blackcat1]

Have seen a few types going vertical through Cad, it's not the vertical climb that caused the trouble , it was the rolls that were carried out. A lot of noise complaints over the years & there was a lot more complaints leading up to the incident.

[TAFFEVANS]

Had Tornado's used to fly through the Mach Loop in darkness using Terrain Following Radar? If so it must have been somewhat scary, I did read once about vehicles being higher than aircraft using TFR, but I am not sure if this was the Loop.

Never went through the Loop at night on the TFR but regularly went through Dunmail Raise/Grasmere in the Lakes. Having enjoyed many hours flying at low level, there is a difference between ‘pushing the limits’ & show boating though. My Navigator through TTTE was sadly killed a couple of days before GW1 when they impacted the desert during a steep turn. The main difference these days is the social media aspect, do something vaguely stupid/incriminating and people in Australia will know about it seconds later.

[Blackcat1]

Yes Taff social media has a lot to answer for.

[roughcutter]

Have seen a few types going vertical through Cad, it's not the vertical climb that caused the trouble , it was the rolls that were carried out. A lot of noise complaints over the years & there was a lot more complaints leading up to the incident.

"P**s off Biggles!"

[Arthur Tee]

I didn't suggest that they could or should police it.

I just suggested it was the ultimate conclusion from your comment about traffic lights.

I don't know if the land belongs to farmers, or the government so I can't really comment. I'm sure it could be made much harder to do though if they wanted to.

The MoD are already in the process of trying to 'make it harder' - they have written to land owners around the Loop and those with 'fields and clearings' used by the helis - asking them to positively discourage enthusiasts from their land.
I know this is fact - as I have seen the letter and know of one land-owner who operates a small strip in Shropshire - and he thinks it stinks!!

PS - Are you aware that the RAF Police (including those at Shawbury) regularly monitor these pages? The Flight Sergeant Snowdrop wanted to know who was passing-on airfield reduced hours times. Despite being of senior years - he was low on intelligence - and had know idea what a NOTAM was!

Arthur

[lowlevelRAF]

The pilot would of known he was in hot water while on RTB, the debrief and HUD tapes that get shown during post flight, would reveal what happened. Social media has highlighted the loop to the extreme, look at the Dailyfail and how many articles a year they print with 'Really low fighter jets in Wales!' on it. We'll see when/if the RAF return to the loop, but in the meantime plenty of other area for them to conduct training.