Syrian/Iraq air war and conflict

[tc2324]

I don`t think the Turks actions were wise, but then again the Russians aren't too bright either.

I read in the news this morning that Russia were waiting for an apology from Turkey and for the `criminals` that shot down their aircraft to be `brought to justice`.

Hmmm...., Flight MH17 anyone?

[seven]

^ my thoughts exactly.

7

[Thunder]

Hmmm...., Flight MH17 anyone?

Except the difference here is that it wasn't Russia that shot Flight MH17 down, it was Ukrainian rebels.

[tc2324]

Hmmm...., Flight MH17 anyone?

Except the difference here is that it wasn't Russia that shot Flight MH17 down, it was Ukrainian rebels.

..... who were supplied and trained in using the system by..... Ta da....! ... Russia. (That`s of course if it wasn`t Russian `advisors` themselves operating the kit?)

We will never know, but I did find Putin`s `demands` very hypercritical, but I suppose that`s politics for you.

[Thunder]

Then the United States should apologise to Russia for the downing of the Su24 since it was an American built jet shooting an American made missile, all of which were controlled by an American built AWAC a/c, and no doubt an American trained crew.

I think you'll find it's Recep Erdogan that is the biggest hypocrite here, he shoots down a Russian a/c for briefly violating Turkish airspace, yet the Turkish AF and Army violated Greek airspace over 2200 times last year alone. Also he stated the following soon after the TuAF RF-4E was shot down by Syria in 2012

"a short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack" if 17 secs isn't short then what is?

I could also mention Bilal Erdogan, does the name look familiar? That's probably because it's Recep's son, and his dealings in buying the stolen oil reserves from ISIS/ISIL/Daesh, so Turkey are effectively bankrolling the terrorists that her supposed Allies in NATO are trying to defeat.

[tc2324]

Was never suggesting that the Turks were innocent or even even correct in this matter.

Just saying that it`s a bit rich of the Russians to get a bee in their bonnet about this when they had a part to play in bringing down a commercial airliner.

[Thunder]

Read that myself, the problem with the whole Syria/ISIS/DAESH thing is that no one is being honest with anyone else. Every country out there doing what ever campaign they are doing are doing it for their own and different reasons.

One example: The Kurds are fighting ISIS, they are being supplied and trained by the USA and the UK. The Turks are bombing the Kurds with weapons and a/c acquired from the USA. Russia are bombing both ISIS and anti Assad rebels, Turkey then shoot down a Russian a/c more than likely because it was bombing Turkmen rebels who are opposed to Assad and being trained and armed by Turkey. Really how can something as f'ed as this ever have a good outcome, I fear there's alot worse to come.

[scottoz8]

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the SU-24 in SYRIAN airspace, when it was brought down ???? Just a thought !!

[scottoz8]

The rebel group known as the Syrian Turkmen Army has told the Reuters news agency that its forces shot the two Russian pilots dead as they descended by parachute....which I think is a war crime under the Geneva Convention of 1949.

Article 42: 1. No person parachuting from an aircraft in distress shall be made the object of attack during his descent.

(However, airborne forces - paratroops - are a legitimate target in the law of war under any circumstances)

Don't think the locals there take much notice of the Geneva Convention.

[the concerned]

With the Russian reaction to the shoot down how are they supposed to tell the difference between a Turkish aircraft and a US aircraft operating out of Turkish bases. Personally I blame Russia when they first started they had the incident where the Su-30 locked up a Turkish f-16 what's Turkey supposed to do. I've said this before where's Russia's awacs systems controlling their aircraft to make sure they stay within Syria's borders. With these defense systems now threatening Turkish caps everytime there's a Russian mission are turkey entitled to take action to eliminate that threat and what about if a Syrian aircraft now crosses Turkeys border are Russia justified to defend that aircraft

[Thunder]

With the Russian reaction to the shoot down how are they supposed to tell the difference between a Turkish aircraft and a US aircraft operating out of Turkish bases.

I think the question here should be 'how do Turkey identify a Russian a/c from a Syrian a/c to a RAF one'. The answer is they don't, they shoot it down without identifying it first. Now as you say what if the Russians did that?

Don't understand why Obama and the NATO heads rushed to support Turkey on this one, they made their bed now they can lie on it. I think Turkey have demonstrated enough over the years to warrant them getting kicked out of NATO.

[seven]

RAF aircraft will have a NATO IFF, Syrian and Russian are unlikely too have that..

7

[the concerned]

We have all seen the reports where Russian pilots have shown arrogance with regards to international encounters the bottom line is that Russia needs to control its pilots to makes sure they don't provoke situations

[Thunder]

So Turkey violating Greek airspace 2244 times last year alone shows what, constraint. Not saying either Turkey or Russia are good guys, both countries have a lot to answer for and not just in this instance, but before anyone defends Turkey's actions google search 'Turkey supplying terrorists'. Unfortunately NATO have no choice but to support Turkey, anything else would show a weakened Alliance and like a weakened fence it would soon break and Turkey is the weak link in NATO'S fence.

What if a RAF or any other NATO a/c had a faulty IFF, it's was the reluctance of Turkey to visually identify the a/c when they said themselves they didn't know what they were targeting before shooting it down. They now say if they knew it was Russian they wouldn't have shot it down, yeah right!! if they were that bothered they would've got positive identification first.

Everytime we send our QRA a/c up to intercept the Russians on their many incursions into UK airspace do we go in all shooting and dancing, no!!

http://www.euronews.com/2015/01/30/only ... ys-source/

[rva65]

As far as I am aware no Russian aircraft have ever entered UK airspace, and they probably have'nt actually ever tried, but on the other hand, the 'West' have entered Soviet, and Russian airspace at will, and everybody else's!

[Thunder]

It's happened, you just don't hear about it because we prefer the diplomacy route.

[22A]

One news channel stated this was the first time for many years a NATO nation had shot down a Russian aircraft.
USAF shot down a MiG 23 over Belgium in the 1980's. But that wasn't hostile, the pilot had banged out and then the aircraft headed West. It was shot down to prevent it crashing in a built up area. Sadly it fell on a farm house killing a 19 year old civilian. Before that we have to go back to the Korean War.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/che ... s-in-1952/

How many NATO aircraft have we lost though going the other way? The U2 in 1960 is the obvious one. Here's a link about the 13 Sqn Canberra shot down over Syria in 1956.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=0wW ... wn&f=false

[Trenchard]

The MiG 23 wasn't shot down, it was escorted by two 32 TFS F15's and eventually ran out of fuel

[rva65]

not forgetting the Lincoln shot down with the loss of the crew, which many moons ago was on a Navigation training flight and inadvertently entered Soviet airspace outside the Allied corridor near or over Berlin, they were quickly intercepted and fired upon, apparently the Soviet leadership in Moscow expressed their regret! and also in the 50's an incident where a MiG-15 entered West German airspace, proceeded to shoot down a USAF multi-engine recce type, either a B-47 or an RB-50, forget which? and promptly flew back to the 'safety' of Soviet East Germany!

[the concerned]

Didn't we recently have a incident where a Russian fighter performed dangerous maneuvers near a US aircraft in the Baltics it all points to a lack of discipline