Hawker Hunter crashed at Shoreham

[Phoon]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p030gphs[/quote]

Please save us from these "experts."[/quote]

I have just seen this. This guy is not an expert he either works or used to work for a railway company dispatching train at London Bridge, he is certainly not an aviation journalist. He is also a railway enthusiast who sprouts off here there and everywhere, upsetting professional people and is full of complete rubbish. Sad events such as this can do without idiots like this jumping on the bandwagon.[/quote]

You know him as well then. A mate of him describes him as "not nice."[/quote]

I know of him. One of my close friends is assistant editor (a degree qualified and time served journalist) on RAIL magazine and has had a run in or two with him. Proper keyboard warrior, also banned from several rail tour companies trains due to constant and sometimes in accurate critism. He certainly is NOT an aviation journalist, he's just a clown jumping on the bandwagon of a terrible tragedy, in my opinion an absolute disgrace.

[davedubya]

You'd be surprised by how many "experts" on TV and radio have pretty much no expertise to present or comment on a given topic. (Mainly I speak from an astronomy and space standpoint, but I'm told it's not limited to that field)

The bigger selling point, rather than actual expertise, are (1) being in the right place and knowing who to contact or (2) having an agent who can position you into point (1).

In this case, they've found someone who was in the vicinity and who happens to have written something for Aviation World magazine. That's an easy decision for the news to make and cheaper than getting someone in from Jane's.

[FuriousGM]

Just on the news, death toll has risen to 11. Awful. R.I.P.

[jeallen01]

I have already posted the following on a separate photographic forum, but having been at Shoreham yesterday (just near the white marquees at the edge of the crowdline), I would like to repost it here as I think it is relevant:

The risks from airshow performances are relatively well known after the many years (over a 100 years so far) they have been taking place, and lessons are learnt every time things like these happen and arrangements are (generally) made to improve them.

This is the same approach that the aircrash investigators take with civil airliners (watch "Aircrash Investigation" on the satellite channels for many examples) and there are actually very many fewer people killed or injured in both fields of aviation than there were in 50's 60's and 70's, even though there are more planes, they have got faster and more people attend such events/fly in civil airliners than did then.

I think one of the real problems with Shoreham is not the flying but with the location (especially being that close to the A27) and the very limited number of routes to enter/leave the site: 1 pedestrian bridge from the East, and 2 road access points but only one of those is open for the general public access, and is the one where the Hunter crashed. That effectively meant HUGE queues to get it (we were queuing on the A27 Westbound approach for over an hour and there were masses of cars behind us, and also meant that with that access completely devastated then virtually everybody on the airfield was trapped for 6-8 hours (there were many vehicles still behind us when we got out at 8pm).

Therefore, had a similar crash happened a couple of hours before, the aircraft would have ploughed into the middle of dozens of virtually stationary vehicles and hundreds of people.

That was an organisation cockup/oversight or call it what you will.

It is also hugely worrying that if the crash had happened just inside the airfield, but near/on that public access road, then hundreds of people would have been killed/injured and the Emergency Services would only have had very limited and difficult access to the site. As it was, the 200-300m long fireball, and most of the debris, was spread in an open area beyond the trees to the North East of the airfield - and thus not thrown anywhere near the public parking and viewing areas - and the Emergency Services could access the impact site from the A27 itself, and to a very limited extent from inside the airfield site via the restricted access entrance, which has a very low bridge, on the South side.

Maybe next year's show (if there is one) should only be via pre-booked tickets (like Duxford's September BoB Anniversary Show will be) so that the numbers can be realistically controlled (which they were not yesterday)?

[Sylar]

BBC News now stating 11 perished. So, so sad.

Shane

[cj9ru]

Yes, very saddened to hear of this yesterday. My thoughts with the families of all those involved.

Like others I wish people wouldn't speculate but this is one of the downsides of our electronic media age. Many, many benefits but sone distinct drawbacks.

May they rest in peace

Chris

[ST24]

Maybe next year's show (if there is one) should only be via pre-booked tickets (like Duxford's September BoB Anniversary Show will be) so that the numbers can be realistically controlled (which they were not yesterday)?

How would that help? Every ticket only, sold out show (Cosford, RIAT, Throckmorton etc) have still had chaotic, jammed roads for hours before and after the show even though they know exactly how many are coming and even what route they'll likely use.
Organisers may cite traffic control as one if the main reasons why they go advance ticket only but it doesn't work.

[The Phantom]

Tragic news that the death toll is now believed to be 11.
New footage on the BBC showing that the Hunter dipped suddely at the bottom of its loop.

[ColintheCaterpillar]

Tragic news that the death toll is now believed to be 11.
New footage on the BBC showing that the Hunter dipped suddely at the bottom of its loop.

That was visible on the earlier footage from behind too. If you watch video of the Hawk 200 in 1999 (and others no doubt), you would see the same thing. (The following comment may appear flippant, but it isn't) It comes shortly after the pilot realises it's gone very wrong, he has no height left, and he's pulling as hard as he can (but for a moment has effectively pulled into the deeper stages of a stall - hence the nose dropping and the apparent wing wobble/waggling).

[gibson617]

Following my previous post last night I would once again like to offer my very sincere condolences to all those involved . This may not be the correct place for this but I cannot get those last moments out of my head . My partner and I had been back to the car and had lunch and were walking back for the Vulcan , Sea Vixen etc . As we were nearly at the entrance tents I said to my partner "here's the hunter" and we kept walking . I then stopped and said hold on I'll just take a couple of photo's and before I had the chance there was an eerie silence and my first thought was ***k me he's low then the fireball and bits flying everywhere . Everyone around us just stopped , stunned , confused not knowing what had happened . My partner and many other women were crying and everyone was silent . Slowly we started talking to strangers and the sorrow and grief hit home , but then we began to realise the enormity of what had happened outside the airfield . Since then I cannot get the vision of the Hunter dipping behind the trees out of my head . It happened right in front of us and I doubt I will ever forget it . My partner say's she has finished with air shows and I expect many other people will feel the same . We have tickets for Dunsfold next week but not not sure if I want to go either . Sorry for rambling , just had to get it off my chest . I went to my first air show at Farnborough in 1968 and have witnessed a few crashes but until now no fatalities and am feeling totally devastated . I'm thinking that when things have calmed down perhaps doing some sort of fund raising for a memorial plaque to those poor souls who have perished . Anyway , any thoughts would be welcome . Thanks for reading .

Regards

Gibson617

[Pete_uk]

It would be very easy to argue against it.

[tc2324]

Following my previous post last night I would once again like to offer my very sincere condolences to all those involved . This may not be the correct place for this but I cannot get those last moments out of my head . My partner and I had been back to the car and had lunch and were walking back for the Vulcan , Sea Vixen etc . As we were nearly at the entrance tents I said to my partner "here's the hunter" and we kept walking . I then stopped and said hold on I'll just take a couple of photo's and before I had the chance there was an eerie silence and my first thought was ***k me he's low then the fireball and bits flying everywhere . Everyone around us just stopped , stunned , confused not knowing what had happened . My partner and many other women were crying and everyone was silent . Slowly we started talking to strangers and the sorrow and grief hit home , but then we began to realise the enormity of what had happened outside the airfield . Since then I cannot get the vision of the Hunter dipping behind the trees out of my head . It happened right in front of us and I doubt I will ever forget it . My partner say's she has finished with air shows and I expect many other people will feel the same . We have tickets for Dunsfold next week but not not sure if I want to go either . Sorry for rambling , just had to get it off my chest . I went to my first air show at Farnborough in 1968 and have witnessed a few crashes but until now no fatalities and am feeling totally devastated . I'm thinking that when things have calmed down perhaps doing some sort of fund raising for a memorial plaque to those poor souls who have perished . Anyway , any thoughts would be welcome . Thanks for reading .

Regards

Gibson617

I think it`s an ideal way to deal with a shocking incident experienced first hand by writing about it Gibson. I think it helps to come to terms with what you see and how to deal with it.

It`s a shame that your partner feels that they are done with airshows and a shame to hear that you might be feeling the same way.

How if I may, let me put this to you.

I live and work in the hell hole that London can be at times and it`s safe to say that over the years I`ve seen a fair bit of death ranging from decapitations in motor bike accidents, twisted bodies from car accidents and the odd tube suicide which is best described as `mush` after the trains passed. As horrible as these things are to see, I can`t just say, right, that`s it, no tube for me` or ` I`ll never drive my car again`. (Ok.., I hate bikes, so I`ll never go on one of those death traps......).

My point is, give yourself time, give your partner time and don`t give up on a decent day out which is part of your aviation hobby due to a one off incident which in all eventuality you will never experience again.

Hope this kinda helps and gives you both a clearer perspective.

[gibson617]

Thanks tc2324 ,
Slight misunderstanding due to my rambling . I am not going to give up my hobby , just thinking about maybe giving Dunsfold a miss next week . However , my partner has since said we should both go next week to see the Vulcan once last time ! So I will now be going and hopefully my partner will come too , She is a huge Vulcan fan . You are right , an incident like Shoreham is unlikely to happen again . As I have previously said , been going to air shows since 1968 and every one was fatal incident free . Yesterday was such a huge shock for everyone and I feel so dreadfully sorry for all the friends and families involved . Thanks for taking the time to reply .

Regards
Gibson617

[paullangford]

BADA Statement:

http://www.bada-uk.com/2015/08/informat ... gust-2015/

Information Note following Shoreham Airshow Accident on 22nd August 2015

BADA WEB ADMIN
AUGUST 23, 2015 BADA NEWS
INFORMATION NOTE

Sunday 23rd August 2015

The British Air Display Association would like to react to the tragic accident that occurred in Shoreham on Saturday August 22nd and first of all to express our support and condolences for the families and friends of all those affected.

UK has long held an exemplary air display record in terms of public safety.
Prior to Saturday’s accident, the last time a member of the public was killed at a UK airshow was in 1952, nearly 63 years ago.
This record reflects the maturity of the multiple checks and balances that UK aviation regulators and airshow practitioners have developed.
The UK has extensive rules that cover airshow organisation, display aircraft heights, speeds and manoeuvres, flying supervision and a special examination and authorisation process for display pilots with graduated steps from simple flypasts to formation and aerobatics approvals.
In this regard, we are the envy of many other nations, not just in Europe but also across the Atlantic.
The Association will not speculate on how or why this particular accident occurred.
Some people might find that frustrating but at this stage even ‘informed’ speculation, without full knowledge of the facts, is unhelpful.
This is a time when careful analysis of the facts is needed before anyone tries to draw conclusions.
It is certainly not a time for un-informed or miss-informed rule making, especially when the existing rules have worked so well for so long.
Air Accident Investigation Branch experts will establish the facts, as quickly as possible.
Then will we will know whether this was a tragic one-off accident or whether there is more that can be done.
If there are lessons from this, that will be something for all involved in airshows to consider.
Our Association will continue to encourage, promote and advance Safety and Standards in British Air Displays.
About the British Air Display Association:

The British Air Display Association was formed in 2011 to consolidate a number of separate expert communities, each with their own expertise, involved in UK airshows. The Association aims to foster the highest standards throughout UK air displays and arranges conferences before and after each summer’s flying display season a cohesive so that all those involved in UK air displays, whether military or civilian, sponsor, event organiser, aircraft owner, flying supervisor or display pilot can exchange ideas and learn together. The conferences are held in conjunction and with the support of the Civil Aviation Authority and the Military Aviation Authority. Other partners and affiliated organisations are the European Airshow Council, the Historic Aircraft Association and the Honourable Company of Air Pilots.

[ndfilter]

Hi Gibson617,
I'm not sure what to say exactly but i wanted to reply, just to share things in case it helps. Apart from friends I have lost in life, I have lost a few friends in aviation and have seen a fatal aircrash. On one occasion, nearly myself as i was part of the support team for Don Bullock's A26 that went down at Biggin - with most of the support team on board, just by chance I didn't attend that day. I think the sum of the pain of those occasions has given me more strength and understanding about life. I don't value it any more or less but I feel i understand my place in it better. It has given me more clarity in situations, I am not always asking "why me?" and I am more fatalistic but not morbidly so, I am accepting of situations, not fighting them but working with them.

It all takes a lot of digesting, on this sunny day I was working in our lovely garden on the bank of the Thames and I knew 7 people would never be able to do that again. Terribly sad, they should have been doing the same as me today (and I now understand it's at least 11 people). It will go but I feel very bad about yesterday's crash at the moment.

Regarding Dunsfold? Tomorrow, next week, next month, they're all along way off and life is far too unpredictable to say 'never' to anything, you don't have to decide on it now, you will both know when the time comes.

I'm sure there are many opinions on visiting airshows at the moment but as a therapist I knew would say "never let anyone 'should' on you".

All the best to you both, Stefan

[sherriff]

This is a terrible occurrence and will be analysed and without doubt recommendations and probable rule changes will occur as a result. I too have seen airshow fatalities and crashes on more than one occasion and recsll the shock i and my companions felt at the time and sympathise with those expressing their trauma on here.
A reality check is needed i think. There is no way accidents will be completely eradicated and I think the safety record since
the Derry crash speaks for itself with regard to normal airshow safety. Lets hope for a considered and logical outcome from the review, that will enhance safety for us all without denying the sheer artistry, skill and spectacle that we all derive so much pleasure and gratification from.
If its going to be another knee-jerk ban everything result, then i think its time to break out the sackcloth and ashes.
We will see !

[Gary]

According to BBC & Sky News, the police are now saying up to 20 people might have been killed http://news.sky.com/story/1540576/air-s ... een-killed

[Pete_uk]

It would be very easy to argue against it.

Not to most people it wouldnt, those who died were not at the event and that is the biggest difference to remember this time. When you attend events you understand the risks better, but why should you if you are simply passing by one?

I don't want to see airshows banned, but to review thier locations (not just how near the crowd stand).

Yeah, I got ya

[welshandy]

Will be discussed(including should future airshows be only held off shore!!) on the Jeremy Vine show on Radio 2 from 12 noon

[rdchawk]

Will be discussed(including should future airshows be only held off shore!!) on the Jeremy Vine show on Radio 2 from 12 noon

Shouldn't really be discussed until all facts are discovered, it'll be a pointless debate on hearsay and rumours.