UK Confirms 9 Boeing P-8's to be purchased

[Arthur Tee]

I don't see how space at Waddington would be a problem given the number of Vulcans which used to be based there.

Amen. A lot of pan space if they tried.

And a large space occupied by the Bomb Dump could also be bitten-into...

Arthur

[sdmach]

Could Leeming be a basing option - it's open and half way up the U.K - the runway may need a stretch ?

[scimitar]

Could Leeming be a basing option - it's open and half way up the U.K - the runway may need a stretch ?

Afraid not as Leeming can't take a P8.
That's why the P8 had to operate from DTV in Joint Warrior 14-2.
Now I've heard the figure of 5 P8's operating from an extended RAF Findhorn.
Cammy

[Razor01]

I understand speaking with the fire crew it was purely the fire cover that Leeming not could provide at the time for this aircraft type was the issue hence the decision to go to DTV for JW - was always originally planned for the exercise - I am pretty certain they could operate from leeming if the appropriate fire operation was in place.

[scimitar]

I'm informed it was more of weight foot print issue but that's by the by.
JW14-2 was such a roaring success for the MPA's at Leeming that I believe they'll not be using it again. The P8 crew was well hacked off, they stayed at Scotch Corner, had to go into Leeming for briefing etc then on to DTV to go flying then do the same thing in reverse following the flight resulting is less time on task.
Add to that the fact that the P3 and Atl were getting called back because of fog issues around Leeming meant that the MPA taskings were incomplete.
On the plus side for me it saved a 6 hour round trip as I got all the MPA's as they went over the GOW.
Cammy

[Agent K]

Could Leeming be a basing option - it's open and half way up the U.K - the runway may need a stretch ?

Whilst this and other wish lists would be nice, I think the statements about basing on coastal and such airbases are a red herring, the transit time from Waddington to and from the sea areas around the UK would not be very much at all. I'll eat my hat (if Paddy Ashdown hasn't done already) if ordered they are not based at Waddington.

[onemac]

Well I'm betting 50p that the aircraft will be based less than 70 miles from the sea (if and when we get them). That's pretty much coastal in my mind and there I go blowing my weeks entitlement of pocket money before Friday.

Al

[thommg]

How about basing (some of) them at Valley???

Nice idea but there will be no room when the Texans arrive and basic flight training is shifted from Linton-on-Ouse.....

[scimitar]

and there I go blowing my weeks entitlement of pocket money before Friday.

Al

Al, as long as it was one of those SNP 50p's you'll be ok. They're the kind you can spend more than once.

Cammy

[Andy_99]

Wouldn't an Inland base be a better idea anyway it its a single base for all - Less chance of fog stopping operations.

If it's gonna be a single base then yes Waddo would fit the bill perfectly in the bean counters eyes, but still a case of all eggs in one basket.

Bet they don't consider the AAR question though & we'll end up with a half-baked solution due to it being unable to refuel in flight.

[Doughnut]

1) Are the US Navy P-8 air refuelable ? If they dont do it why do we need to ? and if they do I assume they have to lease the tankers from USAF.

2) The P-8 are designed to carry torpedo's and depth charges, would that not be a deciding factor in where to base the aircraft ? ie Waddington, although it is has has the available space, it does not have the necessary weapons storage or armours.

3) Biggest worry will be the small fleet being considered. Expect half the fleet to be stood down, on maintance or training at any one time. Maybe a twin base arrangement, where training / maintance be carried out at Waddington but operation flying, with weapons be, Lossiemouth.

[Andy_99]

I've read that the P8 is air-air refuelable via a boom, so I guess the US Navy must use that ability.

Would make sense to have it AAR capable as there's nowhere much for it to pick up gas in it's area of Ops.

Didn't the Mighty Nimrod loiter out over the Atlantic for anything up to 12 Hrs per mission.

Yes good point it's an armed aircraft so yes you need to store the weapons safely

[iainpeden]

2) The P-8 are designed to carry torpedo's and depth charges, would that not be a deciding factor in where to base the aircraft ? ie Waddington, although it is has has the available space, it does not have the necessary weapons storage or armours.

I'm prepared to be shot over this one but a) Vulcans carried some fairly lethal kit, both nuclear and conventional, and the storage may well be capable of a refurbishment and b) I guess the base accommodation would be available for armourers.

[Vulcanone]

Nimrods used to loiter on missions and from memory they would shut down a pair of engines while out there.

I guess we will have to wait and see what has appeared once they have finished all the work at Waddington.

[Thunder]

Everything at Kinloss from the runway, hardstandings, accomadation, armament storage facilities, bulk fuel storage and so on.... has been kept and maintained and could be put back into service in a month or two. Does Waddington have any hangar space to accommodate servicing/maintenance facilities for any new a/c, I know Kinloss has 8 very large hangars lying empty.

The E-3 or C130 weren't able to re fuel via the drogue system until we bought them and adapted them to do so, so it could easily be done on the P8
(I would like to think that such a modification would be part of any deal with Boeing to start with).

[Thunder]

Nimrods used to loiter on missions and from memory they would shut down a pair of engines while out there.

I guess we will have to wait and see what has appeared once they have finished all the work at Waddington.

Yip it was routine for the Nimrod to use all 4 Spey's to get on scene as fast as possible then loiter on station using just 2. They even used to transit using only 2 when they weren't in a rush. Extended the overall mission by quite a bit I believe.

[jakdaw]

Nimrods used to loiter on missions and from memory they would shut down a pair of engines while out there.

I guess we will have to wait and see what has appeared once they have finished all the work at Waddington.

Just to clarify shutting down 2 engines on a P-8 DOESNT increase its loiter time though!!

[Malcolm]

.....so it could easily be done on the P8
(I would like to think that such a modification would be part of any deal with Boeing to start with).

Sorry, but I disagree with that, and especially the highlighted bit.

MOD have become extremely risk adverse in the past 10 years, and simply aren't prepared to fund anything "special". You only have to look at recent purchases to see that they won't pay for mods to add probe AAR capability to RC-135, C-17 or Voyager, and P-8 will be the same. I'm not sure whether this is because they're scared of the cost, or scared of the one off type approval that the MAA will demand, or both. And the same problem will raise it's head when (yes when) the RAF decide they want F-35A's to replace Typhoon.

[onemac]

So the question is; how far is the furthest RAF airfield from the sea and will the 60, 70 or 80 miles of a difference affect the operational duties of a P-8? Probably not to the extent that they require a refuelling system as long as there is 24/7 x 365(6) cover and sufficient overlap for SAR duties.

Al

[Malcolm]

So the question is; how far is the furthest RAF airfield from the sea and will the 60, 70 or 80 miles of a difference affect the operational duties of a P-8? Probably not to the extent that they require a refuelling system as long as there is 24/7 x 365(6) cover and sufficient overlap for SAR duties.

Al

Sorry, but SAR is not a duty that the RAF is funded to perform. It's the overall responsibility of the Department of Transport, and managed by HM Coast Guard. The RAF won't consider spending any extra money to support SAR, and will expect funding from DoT if/when they are called in to assist. If DoT want Nimrod/P-8 SAR coverage they'll have to pay for it.

The primary role for P8 will be protection of our coastline from unfriendly surface and sub surface-threats, and clearing the way so that our Subs can put to sea without being followed. IMV the task is so important that the ASW assets ought to have been included in the Trident nuclear deterant budget. Basing ought to be within a reasonable range of the Trident base, which is currently at Faslaine. So given how the Whitehall decision making process goes, my money is on Manston .