RAF plans huge cuts in planes and bases

[Sheff]

Good point - it would be just as practical I guess, and it would probably be a convenient way of keeping the political lobby happy too. I don't know what started it, but there does seem to be a distinct liking for the "RAF Lincolnshire" concept which started-off as a joke, but as time goes by it seems like there really is some odd obsession with the region. Not that I'm complaining of course!

[RichC]

RAF Lincolnshire and RAF Scotland.

Surely it makes sense to have Maritime Patrol assets of an "Island" to be in a central location or dispersed at either end (like it used to be).
Especially when it comes to the SAR Cover.

The reason Waddington was selected is because it is the "super-base" chosen for all ISTAR , Airborne Control and Surveillance assets. Seeing as the Nimrod MR2 and now the MRA4 are both vital ISTAR assets (Nimrods work Salisbury Plain down south all the time on ISTAR) then it's sensible to have them in that location. And seeing as half of the Rescues and Submarine/Anti-Ship sorties are conducted outside of Scotland and down here then that's another reason for a central location.

Of course the biggest woe of basing so much at one airfield with one runway is that it will turn round and bite the MoD in the arse when something goes manboobs! up at either Waddington or Brize Norton...
what then?
Every single Transport and Tanker needing to take off or land cannot and those waiting to land can be diverted but those waiting to take off cannot do anything but sit there and wait for the runway to be cleared (which could take a long time if something serious happens, which we hope doesn't).
Same goes for Waddington.... then every AWACS, ISTAR, Surveillance and SIGINT platform will be grounded.

Makes you wonder why the "major" USAF bases have more than one runway, obviously they have more space but obviously they are more prepared and sensible in their approach of basing certain assets or dispersing them like they do with the NAOC/TACAMO etc.

[Sheff]

The reason Waddington was selected is because it is the "super-base" chosen for all ISTAR , Airborne Control and Surveillance assets

Think Higlandsniper's point was that the "super base" could be developed at Kinloss. There's no obvious reason why Waddington (as opposed to any other location) has developed as it has, other than that it was a natural development of the E-3's presence. Naturally, transit times are a factor if most missions are to the south of the country, but I guess you also have to weigh-up other factors like the almost forgotten submarine threat and of course localnational politics.

As for the potential for difficulties with blocked runways, I see your point but when you consider the relatively low amount of flying activity, it's not really a consideration. Waddington can obviously rely on Coningsby and Brize has Fairford for example.

With regard to maritime patrol/ASW assets well I entirely agree that strategic positioning must make sense but it seems that the disappearance of any obvious surface/sub-surface threat has allowed the MoD to conveniently ignore this issue. Out of all the base closures, the withdrawal from St.Mawgan must be the most stupid, short-sighted and disgraceful decision of all. It's even more ridiculous now that attention is being turned towards the idea of shifting RAF helicopters to Culdrose. What a complete farce - shoving more and more aircraft into a relatively tiny airfield when a huge (and I mean huge) airfield with top-class facilities is abandoned just a few miles away. Complete, utter madness.

[RichC]

Totally agree about St. Mawgan but without the clout of a member of Government (high up in the order) then the SW will always suffer....
Something of which of course Scotland has....

[Dunk]

The issue of eggs in one basket with one runway is not crazy at all.

How many time over the last 5 years has Brize's runway been closed? Maybe 3-4 times and not for very long. Brize can't rely on Fairford, it isn't open, and not avalable at short notice. Brize nortons diversion aerodromes are Manchester and Birmingham.

[HighlandSniper]

RAF Lincolnshire just doesn't make sense which ever way you look at it.

From purely selfish reasons which have nothing to do with aircraft spotting, there are going to be an awful lot of angry Scots if the closure of Kinloss was announced following many assurances of its long-term security in the not so distant past - but there again we're had so many lies from the Labour Government this would just be another one to add to their very long history of lying to their voters - not that there are many labour voters here, the other idiots get the majority here, the ones who think they can go it alone

[RichC]

The issue of eggs in one basket with one runway is not crazy at all.

How many time over the last 5 years has Brize's runway been closed? Maybe 3-4 times and not for very long. Brize can't rely on Fairford, it isn't open, and not avalable at short notice. Brize nortons diversion aerodromes are Manchester and Birmingham.

Yes but Dunk,
you should know all too well something can go manboobs! up on approach and ending up as breaking news on the TV. Obviously the worse scenario but it happens and it can happen at Brize and it will close the airfield for a considerable time.
Any of the planes on the ground before that approach which might go horribly wrong will then be grounded for that time period of investigation/cleanup.

That, coupled with fog that we have had at times (diverts being to Manchester) at Brize or something else which causes the runway to go black...

Never say never in the world of aviation. Thankfully it doesn't happen very often.

H.Sniper.

I too do not see any logical reason for putting 75% of front line aircraft in the same location/region. It's a bit greedy on those local governments and it's a bit unfair for the MoD to do that when they close other stations which were perfectly suited beforehand and operating the type efficiently and effectively.

[f-4]

The issue of eggs in one basket with one runway is not crazy at all.

How many time over the last 5 years has Brize's runway been closed? Maybe 3-4 times and not for very long. Brize can't rely on Fairford, it isn't open, and not avalable at short notice. Brize nortons diversion aerodromes are Manchester and Birmingham.

True - the operation at Brize will be similar to any major airport. Resurfacing will be the only challenge, but airport operations have proved it can be done overnight (Stansted) without too much disruption.

The biggest challenge I can see is getting the base social infrastructure upgraded to a point it can adequately support the increase in personnel and more importantly, families - this is what's behind, as far as I am aware.

[Sheff]

Regarding Fairford, I should say that I wasn't suggesting the airfield was a designated diversion for Brize, but obviously it's there if there was a major emergency. My point was that even Brize is unlikely to be too busy to cope with a runway closure. Presumably it would only require no more than a handful of aircraft to recover to other airfields, and outbound flights would be postponed or scrubbed. Either way it's not a major factor when it's weighed-up against the overall logistics and costs of maintaining an entire airfield. One can only imagine that the official view is that if the runway is disabled at some stage then hard luck - as long as money is saved, their work is done.

[GOOSE]

It's not just the RAF that is being knifed by the budgeteers!

Here's a report of job losses in the USAF too -

The Air Force announced plans on Monday to cut 3,700 Airmen, saying the mix of a poor economy and good retention has swelled its ranks beyond manageability.

The service will cut 2,074 officers and 1,633 enlisted Airmen through “voluntary and involuntary early separation and retirement programs,” an Air Force news release said.


Military.com news here - http://www.military.com/news/article/af ... 6032325324

[mrlongbow]

But unlike the UK the overall strength of the army is going up by 35,000 i think it was.

[Blackcat1]

Fingers x

[garethbrum]

Brace yourselves...the pre budget report is tomorrow (9th December). Should give an indication of things to come! Let's hope there is some Christmas Cheer for RAF personnel and us as enthusiasts!

From the BBC:
"This is not a spending review, and so we won't get detailed spending plans for individual departments."

It will be interesting to see if there are any clues though as to what might occur, cuts are seemingly inevitable regardless of who is in power following the GE.

[RichC]

ITV News just had a big stint on this at 22:10 tonight.
They have word that atleast ONE station will definately close. They showed RAF Cottesmore as the apparent main contender for this but surprisingly.... they also showed and mentioned that RAF Lossiemouth is now in the running to shut if Cottesmore does not. The MoD have to cut 6 BILLION quid.
I thought this base was totally secure?

They said also the reason for not coming to a sooner arangement in line with the budget is because they simply can't fathom on what to do and what to close but both bases were stated however as said, Cottesmore seems the likely one.

Meanwhile, on the same news programme, Gordon Brown has just announced that the UK is giving 1.5 BILLION to third world countries to cut down emissions... the biggest hand out of any European Country.

How angry can this get people when we are not looking after our own, making people jobless, treating the forces like crap and then throwing billions at other countries.

[Unknown74]

This Country is being ruined by Politicians, Lawyers, Bankers (yes I did say Bankers) people who say they know what they're doing - yeah right. Hate to say it before long Britain is going to the dogs, no Defence, dreadful economy, split up by a bunch of numptified politicians.

JUST DON'T GET ME STARTED

[Sheff]

Think this goes back to earlier posts which we've already discussed. Cottesmore has been mentioned but if there's substance to the story, then I doubt if it would be just a case of moving the Harriers. Think it's more likely that it means the withdrawal of the Harrier fleet - and perhaps the carrier programme. Oh well, we should know for certain soon.

[Sheff]

Indeed. I'd be surprised if any major decisions were announced now. Brown and his cronies must be more inclined to postpone the misery until they're safely out of Government and back home enjoying their over-inflated salaries. The news hounds, being the creatures that they are, have probably picked-up the same gossip as we have (wouldn't be the first time that a journalist has stolen "news" from sites such as this) therefore it may well be that no specific decisions have been made as yet. But I think it's pretty clear that (as I've said many times before) it's the Harrier fleet that is at greatest risk along with everything associated with it (bases, carriers and replacement aircraft programmes).

As Razor mentions, I was absolutely gobsmacked at Brown's announcement that despite being the only country in Europe not to have emerged from recession, we can suddenly find billions to throw away on third world countries. Can't afford to provide an adequate defence budget for our own country but we can afford to play crusades in Afghanistan (killing hundreds of servicemen in the process) and throw money at other countries. Brilliant, just brilliant. Wouldn't you just like to meet some of these people like Brown and Darling and tell 'em to their face what you think of them? How do these odious fools sleep at night?

[HighlandSniper]

Wouldn't you just like to meet some of these people like Brown and Darling and tell 'em to their face what you think of them? How do these odious fools sleep at night?

Well said that man.

[Unknown74]

Looks like there will be at least one or two Commanding Officers not enjoying their Christmas Dinners This Year. Hope the pen pushers at the treasury choke on theirs!!!!

[Dunk]

More news, 1 base to close, Cypress to be scaled back...according to Ch4!

Reuters linky