UK Confirms 9 Boeing P-8's to be purchased

[welshandy]

Rumours are apparently starting to circulate at Waddington that the P-8s may stay south of the border....

Now with Scotland now looking at another independence vote, that rumour may now IMHO become a reality.

[Sparts99]

P8s to Lossiemouth.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36763212

[page_verify]

As mentioned, the order was signed today for the UK's P-8s.

Minimum of 9, maximum of 12, actual unit costs will determine how many are actually received despite what the press releases say has been ordered. The aim is to have at least as many P-8s as there would have been Nimrod MR4As, but there's likely to be some recognition that not enough Nimrods would have been delivered.

A delivery of a single P-8 in RAF markings is planned for 2018 in recognition of the now urgent requirement for one, the remainder will arrive around 2020.

In the meantime, the US are going to be deploying P-8s to the Med, which means it'll soon easier to get an RAF crewed anti-submarine aircraft to the part of the UK that sometimes needs one.

The aircraft will be cleared for Harpoon, Maverick, depth charges and the latest torpedo on delivery, but the US want to certify it for all of the "Joint / Jxxx" air to ground weapons after delivery although there's no suggestion the RAF will use all of those.

Within the RAF there's never been any ambiguity over where it'll be based - always planned to be Scotland.

The MoD is currently working out how to answer the question about how it'll provide boom format air refueling - RC-135, C17 and now the P-8 are boom only and one of the P-8's many missions requires complete independence so cannot rely on allied tankers. There's also talk of the RAF buying some F-35As now, which are also boom only.

Some, none or all of the above might be incorrect, I'll let the reader decide but given where I heard if from I'm happy to go along with it.

[filmman]

MAYDAY
The P8 contract was signed by the Cameron Government. I would not be surprised if it was not being reconsidered; if we really need the capability, 2018 plus is a bit questionable, although it's nice for the Boeing production line. There is also the question of eventual numbers. In the wider context there is also the question of post BREXIT trade deals, EU negotiations the Trump wildcard, F35 costs and type, boom or drogue refuelling and the ongoing squeeze and reallocation of Government spending. A May mini defence review might not be surprising!
Filmman

[page_verify]

A signed deal is a signed deal, these days exiting a contract won't be cheap. None of May's reconsiderations have been foreign policy or defence related, there's no votes in it for her to change decisions when the public considers them boring topics.

[Dan D'Air]

Post Brexit £ value has upped the costs by some 15 per cent.
Maybe exchange rates will improve with time.

Sent from my Y635-L01 using Tapatalk

[page_verify]

Nevermind low yield gilts, the UK is about to enter the world of negative interest rates!

[page_verify]

Boeing readies to build four U.K. RAF P-8A jets
August 19, 2016

http://www.militaryaerospace.com/articl ... -jets.html

PATUXENT RIVER NAS, Md., 19 Aug. 2016. Large military aircraft experts at the Boeing Co. are preparing to build four P-8A Poseidon maritime patrol jet aircraft for the United Kingdom Royal Air Force (RAF).
Officials of the U.S. Naval Air Systems Command at Patuxent River Naval Air Station, Md., announced a $68.4 million order Thursday to the Boeing Defense, Space & Security segment in Seattle for long-lead items for four future RAF P-8A aircraft.
The P-8 is a militarized version of the Boeing 737 single-aisle jetliner hardened for long-range maritime patrol and anti-submarine warfare (ASW) missions. For the RAF the P-8 is scheduled to replace the now-retired Hawker Siddeley/BAE Systems Nimrod MR2 -- a maritime patrol version of the de Havilland Comet jet airliner. The Nimrod was in service from 1967 to 2011.
The United Kingdom Ministry of Defence ordered nine P-8A aircraft last month to replace the Nimrod MR2. The RAF will base its future P-8As at RAF Lossiemouth in Scotland, which will bring an additional 400 military personnel RAF Lossiemouth air base. Operators of the P-8A are the U.S., Australia, India, and the United Kingdom.

Thursday's contract modification provides for long-lead parts and efforts related to the manufacture of two full-rate production 4 Lot 8 P-8A multi-mission maritime aircraft for the RAF under the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) program. Long-lead items involve system components that require the longest time to build, which could delay overall system production if money isn't allocated for production early in the process.
The P-8A is designed to operate at high altitudes for wide-area reconnaissance, as well as extremely low altitudes over the ocean during close-in searches for potentially hostile submarines. The P-8A is designed to withstand the rigors of low-altitude turbulence and exposure to salt spray.
The aircraft also can remain at high altitudes while hunting for submarines with help from the Northrop Grumman RQ-4N Triton Broad Area Maritime Surveillance (BAMS) unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) -- a maritime-patrol version of the Global Hawk long-range surveillance UAV.
The U.S. Navy plans call for using BAMS to detect potentially hostile submarines and surface ships, and upon detection, to call in the P-8A to take a closer look or to attack hostile vessels with torpedoes and missiles. The P-8A also can release torpedoes from high altitudes, and has a UAV-based magnetic anomaly detector (MAD) in development.

Boeing is building the Poseidon aircraft at its factory in Renton, Wash. The 737 fuselage and tail sections will come from Spirit AeroSystems in Wichita, Kan., then transferred to Renton where technicians assemble all structural features in sequence.
The P-8A’s flight management system and the stores management system are from GE Aviation Systems in Grand Rapids, Mich. The plane's cabin has as many as seven operator consoles.
The Poseidon’s MX-20HD digital electro-optical and infrared (EO/IR) multi-spectral sensor turrets come from L-3 Communications Wescam in Burlington, Ontario. The MX-20HD is gyro-stabilized and can have as many as seven sensors, including infrared, CCDTV, image intensifier, laser rangefinder, and laser illuminator.
The aircraft has the upgraded APS-137D(V)5 maritime surveillance radar and signals intelligence (SIGINT) system from the Raytheon Co. Space and Airborne Systems (SAS) segment in McKinney, Texas.

The APS-137D(V)5 radar, which is installed on the P-8’s enlarged nose fairing, provides synthetic aperture radar (SAR) for imaging stationary ships and small vessels, coastal and overland surveillance, and high-resolution imaging synthetic aperture radar (ISAR) for imaging surfaced submarines and fast surface vessels operating in coastal waters.
The P-8A will have the CAE Inc. advanced integrated magnetic anomaly detection (MAD) system. The Navy plans to arm the P-8A with the MK 54 torpedo.
On this contract modification Boeing will do the work in Seattle; Baltimore; Greenlawn and North Amityville, N.Y.; and Cambridge, England, and should be finished by July 2017.

[plmc135]

"On this contract modification Boeing will do the work in Seattle; Baltimore; Greenlawn and North Amityville, N.Y.; and Cambridge, England, and should be finished by July 2017."

Oh dear not the sequel to the Amityville horror one hopes!

[page_verify]

Hope not! If the first four air frames are delivered by July 2017, then an RAF delivery date in 2018 still seems likely.

[onemac]

Based at Lossiemouth??? There's a lot of false rumours still floating about then!

Al

[nickowen]

Interesting to note that 15 ZP serials have been reserved....

[scottoz8]

not much room at Lossiemouth when 29(R) go there

[Contrail1958]

not much room at Lossiemouth when 29(R) go there

[tm74sqn]

The Defence Infrastructure Organisation Procurement Plan, projected programmes list was posted on the web a few days ago - said to have been done by accident? If it is still there, see
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _FINAL.pdf

Page 40 of the document said
Multi -Typhoon Sqn Uplift [Typhoon Sqn uplift 1x LOSI & CONI and relocate OCU to LOSI ] Qtr 2 2018/19 Qtr 4 2019/20

First date is expression of interest for contractors, second is contract award date.

My reading of that is that 29(R) Sqn will re-locate from Coningsby to Lossiemouth some time after 2019/2020.

Time will tell . . . . . !
TM74

[Bluetail]

Runway at Kinloss would have needed too much work for P-8A

......He explained that the Kinloss runway was 500feet shorter than Lossiemouth – meaning that if it was to be used it would first require a complete upgrade. In addition, the P-8A undercarriage configuration is narrower than the Nimrod – meaning that a much heavier weight is confined to a smaller area.

The depth, length and strength of the Kinloss runway would need to be addressed for that reason – and that put Lossiemouth firmly in control of the new aircraft.

http://www.insidemoray.com/runway-at-ki ... -for-p-8a/

Seems a very strange response to me, considering I've seen the following operate out of Kinloss in recent years, C-17, AN-124, DC-10 B-707, E-3A, TU-154 all very much heavier than a P-8, and all after major upgrade work to the runway at Kinloss in 1996 and 2006. Now as for Lossiemouth, why do you think they backtrack when landing on 23, its because the northern taxiway is way to narrow, which leads me to think similar major upgrade work to the taxiways needs to be done, which is not the case at Kinloss.

The real answer is that they don't want to be proven wrong for the decision to shut Kinloss, so to save face they will shoehorn everything into Lossie, which actually won't be a problem.

[Malcolm]

Seems a very strange response to me, considering I've seen the following operate out of Kinloss in recent years, C-17, AN-124, DC-10 B-707, E-3A, TU-154 all very much heavier than a P-8, and all after major upgrade work to the runway at Kinloss in 1996 and 2006. Now as for Lossiemouth, why do you think they backtrack when landing on 23, its because the northern taxiway is way to narrow, which leads me to think similar major upgrade work to the taxiways needs to be done, which is not the case at Kinloss.

The real answer is that they don't want to be proven wrong for the decision to shut Kinloss, so to save face they will shoehorn everything into Lossie, which actually want be a problem.

All the types you mention have multiple wheels/bogies per main undercarriage leg, and this spreads the weight around. Some even have 3 or 4 main undercarriage legs. The P8 only has 2 legs and 2 tyres per leg. Runways have multiple weight classifications depending on the wheel arrangement - Also, whilst I've no doubt all the types have operated from Kinloss, how can you know what their all up weight's at the time were? It is routine for 'heavy' types to take of from smaller airstrips with either reduced fuel or payload. B737's have to do this all the time at Bristol airport which is only 6600'. B757's can take off fully loaded, even though they have a higher MTOW.

For me the main point is that Kinloss is only 7500' long. The B737-800 requires 8000' to take off under all conditions. The P-8 has a heavier MTOW than a B737-800 so that may require even longer. Basing P8 at Kinloss means they can't always take off at MTOW, and with us having no sovereign IFR capability for the P8 that is a capability limiter which we don't want or need to accept. Yes they could probably extend the runway by 500' - after all they are doing exactly that at Waddo, and nothing has gone wrong with that plan has it?

[Bluetail]

Nimrod MR2, Zero Fuel weight 86,000 lb, Max TOW 192,000 lb x4 Spey @ 12,160lb (48,640)
Nimrod MRA4 Zero Fuel 114,000lb Max TOW 232,000 x 4 BR710
Significantly heavier

P-8A Zero Weight 138,296lb, Max TOW 189,201 x 2 CFM 56 @ 27,000lb (54,000)

Nimrod was heavier and in my 16 years on them MAX TOW in later years was nearer 200K with Zero Fuel over 100K, and we were operating Nimrods taking off at with Max Fuel all the time, and remember they were going to operate MRA4 out of Kinloss and would have done so with Max Fuel. It was standard practise to have the SAR Standby loaded with a full fuel load.

[Jabba]

Lossie runway 23/05 is 453 METRES (1,486 feet) longer than runway 26/07 at Kinloss. I haven't read the whole thread and I apologise if this was mentioned earlier but another possible factor in the decision could be the bird activity at Kinloss at certain times of the year made operations difficult as evidenced by the crash of a Nimrod shortly after take-off on the 17th November 1980.

[gamecock]

All the types you mention have multiple wheels/bogies per main undercarriage leg, and this spreads the weight around. Some even have 3 or 4 main undercarriage legs. The P8 only has 2 legs and 2 tyres per leg. Runways have multiple weight classifications depending on the wheel arrangement

Which is why the P8 had to operate from Teesside Airport a couple of years ago - Leeming couldn't take them either.