UK Confirms 9 Boeing P-8's to be purchased

[Agent K]

Waddington is an active airfield. Importantly it has the space, and the infrastructure, it has a Boeing customer support organisation in place as well as a comprehensive logistics chain and pretty much everything else required to support a P8 fleet. It is also the HQ of ISTAR. Previous Nimrod operations saw the type operating from Seeb over the Gulf and Afghanistan, all around UK’s waters, and others the location of the airfield I do not think is significant in that it needs to be near the Northern Scottish Coast.

Whether it be decommissioning a stood down airfield or converting the likes of Mildenhall these will all come with a considerable expense and effort. Today is all about closing airfields and rationalising, not the reverse.

As much as some of the comments here are nice to haves or wish lists, I suspect in today’s financial climate will any unnecessary cost be spent on commissioning airfields or having to significantly convert airfields to take a new service type.

I still firmly believe if the capability shortfall is finally addressed it will be at Waddington.

[onemac]

Just because a decision may seem logical it won't stop the MoD from making a sensible one. Agent K makes the argument that it's not significant to base the P-8's near the northern Scottish coast yet the same reasoning could be applied to QRA and everything based at Coningsby yet the decision was to move it from Leuchars (when it closed) to Lossie?

Andy_99 - there's no way that we will move back to Europe as the existing countries provide the cover through NATO.

There's massive infrastructure work going on at Lossie at the moment and yet all the squadrons are present. Once the 1(F) Sqn and II(AC) Sqn buildings are completed there should be no need for further works yet what's going on opposite Delta (the XV(R) Sqn pan) would seem to contradict this. XV(R) Sqn are due to disband in 2018 and the remaining airworthy Tornados will go to Marham for the last year of service which will leave a huge pan capable of housing a substantial number of MPA's as was recently seen at a Joint Warrior Exercise, two hangars capable of housing massive aircraft (except the tails) and an existing infrastructure that is in a 'walk in' state. Nope, my money is on Lossie for the P-8's and, following the SDSR, procurement procedure and political posturing, the timings would appear to confirm this.

Of course all this depends on whether we actually have an Air Force in 3 years time - we may just provide the personnel to NATO as our contribution! P-8 - more likely Atlantique IMHO.

Al

[Agent K]

Al, you raise very reasonable and equally as valid points. I guess I see QRA slightly differently with the need to respond very rapidly, and there being the Northern and Southern sectors, more so I guess than normal MPA, however.....! I suspect a few of us on this forum may be eating our hats post SDSR 2015.

[onemac]

So, with JW15-2 just finished the rumour mill from all our visitors seems to be that the UK has gone as far as pre-purchasing some P-8 airframes. Numbers apparently range between 5 and 8 and with the taxiways at Lossie unable to take the P-8's, unless they upgrade them, then Lossie seems to be out of the running :-(

I have heard that the Army are moving out of Kinloss so that opens the old Waddo/Kinloss debate again.

Thoughts?

Al

[Contrail1958]

Well Waddo would still seem to tick all the boxes and now they have binned the
airshow ( which someone mentioned may happen.. cough, it would be fair to say
the new P-8 fleet may be based there. Although someone did mention problems at Waddo
which as soon as I find it I'll post. May be the "state of the northside of the airfield"

[Mike]

So, with JW15-2 just finished the rumour mill from all our visitors seems to be that the UK has gone as far as pre-purchasing some P-8 airframes. Numbers apparently range between 5 and 8 and with the taxiways at Lossie unable to take the P-8's, unless they upgrade them, then Lossie seems to be out of the running :-(

I have heard that the Army are moving out of Kinloss so that opens the old Waddo/Kinloss debate again.

Thoughts?

Al

So if the taxiways can't cope with P-8s - how did the taxiways cope with the visiting USN P-8s?

[Contrail1958]

They constantly backtracked the mains Mike.

[Thunder]

I think this will be down to a number of reasons. Obstructions near the taxiway like the engine detuner on the North side has some low level floodlighting that is fairly close to Taxiway 7 and the ground on the North side of Taxiway 6 raises up quite sharply in places. These problems could be rectified if need be, however HAS01 on the North site is pretty close and would probably pose a problem as well. The biggest a/c I've seen to use the full length of the Northern taxiways (6 and 7) would be a P-3. I've seen the EC-24 (DC-8) use TW06 but it then had to turn off onto RW10 then back track along the main to the 23/Lima cut. Then you'd have to take into consideration the low stance of the P-8's engines, those things would cut the grass as it trundled along.

[Mike]

They constantly backtracked the mains Mike.

OK, thanks for that.

I'm intrigued by Scott's reply, he mentions "Taxiway 7, taxiway 6, HAS1, Northern taxiways 6 & 7, TW06 and Lima Cut"

I've been to Lossie a "few" times, can anyone explain where these places are?

[onemac]

Chaps, the P-8's were constantly send to the end and requested to 180 on the concrete. One decided to use the Northern taxiway (the one that runs past XV (R) Sqn Mike) and incurred the wrath of the station. Another had to return to the ramp because they had forgotten some equipment and proceeded south across the 10 threshold then took the taxiway towards 202 Sqn until he hit the main before backtracking. The de-tuner is far enough back but one of the HAS's is quite close but it's probably the tying up of the taxiway for Q that's the issue.

I have a map for you Mike

Al

[Mike]

Chaps, the P-8's were constantly send to the end and requested to 180 on the concrete. One decided to use the Northern taxiway (the one that runs past XV (R) Sqn Mike) and incurred the wrath of the station. Another had to return to the ramp because they had forgotten some equipment and proceeded south across the 10 threshold then took the taxiway towards 202 Sqn until he hit the main before backtracking. The de-tuner is far enough back but one of the HAS's is quite close but it's probably the tying up of the taxiway for Q that's the issue.

I have a map for you Mike

Al

Map please - I have no idea where *** hard or *** hard are, there's probably hundreds of others with the same issue !

[Thunder]

Taxiway 6 runs from the 05 Threshold up to the 10 Threshold. Taxiway 7 runs from the 10 Threshold down to and including "C-Hard"(XV Sqn dispersal).

23/Lima cut is where Lima Hard(old 3rd runway) crosses the main at the golf course end, also known as "Golf" iirc on the station crash map.

Al, the de tuner itself is far enough back from the taxiway but there are some low down(about 6ft high) floodlights on the entrance track off from the taxiway, that light up the pan area in front of the de tuner that may cause problems.

[TonyO]

Examinations have been conducted by Boeing on both Lossiemouth and Waddington. Waddington would MOB if we bought P-8.

[IanH]

Major hole in the south west chaps. We'be made this mistake before! St Mawgan lost but Newquay still retains runway and infrastructure space to manage temporary boltholes. Temporary QRA base at CU will be further tested. Shouldn't forget the south and Sith west hence waddington seems preferable.US Rcs practically live at Souza for this reason and others. Don't want to mention politics but let's not forget the independence word either sadly as much as it pains me! This issue just will not disappear. Personally I feel Lossie represents a major risk for this reason alone ignoring logistics etc. Moving a few fighters out is a doddle if there is a border change. Btw ian

[Contrail1958]

If the powers at be select the converted C-130 option then Lossie may be the sure
fire winner. It would be a good employer prospect for Tory votes.
The C-130's to Lossie the Rivet Joints and AWAC'S could therefore move to
Brize and Waddo would be a diversion field.

[Drewparkes]

So it doesn't look like it could be Lossiemouth for any MPA asset base.

That still leaves a fully capable base 12 miles down the road. Why was ISK led the way it was,with strict instructions
to the Army not to touch anything! With rumours now that the Army have been told to start packing up again to add to the mix. When is the announcement going to be made either way?

ATB

Drew

[IanH]

Very salient point. I think finding middle ground accounting for the uncertain political scene and what is right for the UPs defence is a nightmare at the mo. The present Govn cannot risk placing more sensitive assets in Scotland at this time until it becomes law that the independence issue is buried in my humble opinion. Both leuchars and Lossie are great bases but the UK may not own them in the future and that makes both unlikely. They won't close Leuchars because it would add fuel to the SNP arguement that London doesn't care. I find the centre ground compelling with a range of boltholes in various locations. Hercs would certainly fill a short term gap but this one has been discussed for years but it's not a long term solution. I live near Brize and believe me there isn't much scope for anything else to be based there. Never say never but my understanding is 8 San looked to temporarily station there during Wadds resurfacing but this was declined.

[Tally-ho]

Don't want to mention politics but let's not forget the independence word .... This issue just will not disappear. Personally I feel Lossie represents a major risk for this reason alone ....

And that is precisely the nettle of it all. With the current political winds of possible change in Scotland and the impact it has on strategic military thinking, the sheer political risk of any new military infrastructure investment in Scotland, means RAF Waddington probably remains a preferred choice.

[onemac]

RAF Waddington probably remains a preferred choice.

If that Corbyn chappy does the unthinkable then that statement is as unlikely as Nicola welcoming them to Machrahanish.

Al

[plmc135]

Perhaps the MoD will arrange a contract like the Air Tanker one for the Voyagers so that Ryanair can borrow the 737's when the RAF do not require them!!