India to buy Rafales - Eurofighter loses

[chrisfg1]

To be fair it looked the obvious choice but i can see them doing a deal to off load tne mirage 2000's and possible buy naval variants as well as charles de'gualle carrier leaving the french to buy brtian's second carrier

There we go then. The French buy our second carrier and in return we buy Rafales instead of the F35. How many Rafales could we get for a carrier?

[RichC]

If the French bought one of our carriers then that would leave us in a rather embarrassing predicament. So what happens when we put our "one" carrier in refit for 2 years. We can't go expecting to jointly use other nations carriers, especially if something arises that those other countries do not wish to be part of. Hence why we "have" to have two carriers. A bit like why we buy more than one or two Submarines.

[chrisfg1]

I'm not sure that common sense and politics always go hand in hand!

[hertsman]

If the French bought one of our carriers then that would leave us in a rather embarrassing predicament. So what happens when we put our "one" carrier in refit for 2 years. We can't go expecting to jointly use other nations carriers, especially if something arises that those other countries do not wish to be part of. Hence why we "have" to have two carriers. A bit like why we buy more than one or two Submarines.

It might be possible to co-operate with the French if we were to retain one carrier and share the other with them. If they keep the Charles De Gaulle, then it ought to be possible to co-ordinate the refits so that a carrier is available to fill the gap left for France or the UK for the majority of the time. To enable a smooth handover from one navy to the other, it would work best if we standardised aircraft. As that has to be Rafale, we get fixed-wing naval strike a lot sooner than otherwise (2018 v.late 2020's?) and spend less money too. Joint training, joint maintenance but probably some weapons-fit issues to over come, but less to fix than on F35.

I accept this is will be an imperfect answer but we are both financially embarrassed at the moment. What was not good enough a few years back might just be the best that can be done for now.

hertsman

[hertsman]

Buying/leasing an interim naval fighter and operating it until around 2030 makes a lot of sense. By that time F35 should have matured, providing it's got through it's development problems. The American's have already confirmed they are unlikely to acquire F35 in serious quantities until the 2020's, so we are very unlikely to have F35 operational until late in that decade anyway.

Another decade or more is a long time to wait for '5th generation technology'. F35's capabilities will likely need to be enhanced by that time, unless the rest of the world has stood by and waited until it's here before thinking about how to tackle it. It's development has been so slow it risks having it's thunder stolen before it's arrived. If we don't get an interim fighter we risk having one (or two) carrier(s) for about 12 - 15 years with no jets to fly off them. And if F35 completely flunks it exams and still doesn't work, we are then in a very, very bad place indeed.

These are risks the Navy and MoD must be assessing at the moment. In 2015 we will get the next Strategic Defence Review. A decision will have to be made concerning the whole F35/Carrier issue again. If they don't like the interim solution and F35 is still struggling, then they have to decide to sell them, or use them for something else. For political reasons, cancellation wouldn't happen until the construction work is more or less complete.

This really is a monumental problem. A good one to leave for the next government therefore - around 2015 as luck would have it.

hertsman

[the concerned]

Weren't the french going to build another carrier anyway that is the same as the british design i do remember seeing it in janes fighting ships. So if once we have commisioned the second carrier we transfered the first to france whilst we jointly built the third which would be jointly owned bye both to be used when our other ones in refit.We have to realise that PRIDE is extremely expensive and have to get the best capabilty at an affordable price and i think this is the best option for both countries and nato.

[hertsman]

A recent article from Aviation Week on F35's trials and tribulations. Not much new but it gives a reasonable run-down of recent woes.

I don't know how good their UK sources are, but it suggests tensions between The RAF and the Navy. According to AW, the RN is keen to get a plane such as F18 on deck while waiting for F35C. Allegedly they are supported by the politicians who fear looking foolish (resists temptation to comment) by having a wonderful new aircraft carrier with no planes for a lengthy period.

The RAF want stealth so I assume they are miffed because they sense that if F18 were ordered, the F35 could get delayed through political choice, or even dumped.

As if this programme didn't already have enough problems without inter-service rivalry.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... ms&prev=10" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

hertsman

[ArabJazzie]

Dont know if it was a case of burying his head in the sand but some Lord or other on Question Time mentioned that the Rafale deal wasnt completed and seemed to imply that Typhoon still had a chance.
Arabest,
Geoff.

[C24]

Not quite thought through but-

Tata Industries own "British Steel" and Jaguar, so why doesn't BaE (and EF group) form a consortium with them to produce 2 seat versions in conjunction with Hindustan Industries? The UK government could assist by offering the next 15 years of aid as condition of the deal. As in, no Typhoons, no aid.

BaE should also join with F-18 production as sub-contractor for RN a/c, accepting delivery for training squadron in time for the first carrier.

The personnel department at MOD should prepare a plan to reduce the RAF/RN staff by only having far fewer senior ranks above 2 1/2 rings. That would save some cash and concentrate the minds in Whitehall. Everyone on a Project would also have their total emoluments linked to coatings, over-runs to be deducted from the Team on an annual basis.

Well, that's got that off my chest

Would you like me to start on about my Theory for the Falklands? Send our fishing fleet down to catch the fish there and to support our explortation of the mineral resources?

[the concerned]

I seem to remember reading that ain't the waters around the falkland islands mostly too rough for conventional aircraft to operate from aircraft carriers so have we just made a huge mistake

[Mark]

Surely the UK government will have to continue supplying the 'aid' for the next few years in case anybody suspected the 'aid' was actually a bung to get them to buy Typhoon, something that was highly critisised when Bae was alleged to have done something similar with the Saudi's.

In which case India have done a right number on us and are probably laughing all the way to the bank..

[T_J]

Surely the UK government will have to continue supplying the 'aid' for the next few years in case anybody suspected the 'aid' was actually a bung to get them to buy Typhoon, something that was highly critisised when Bae was alleged to have done something similar with the Saudi's.

In which case India have done a right number on us and are probably laughing all the way to the bank..

The UK wasn't the lead on Typhoon sales to India, it was Germany (EADS).

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/india-german ... 692-3.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.indiandefencereview.com/defe ... India.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[hertsman]

The Rafale contract is not signed. All that has been agreed is that the Indians will now start the next stage of the process by talking exclusively with Dassault about the finer details, including the final price. It's sort of like agreeing to buy a house - there's all sorts of technical and legal details that have to be completed before both parties actually sign the deal. India's record suggests none of these things happen quickly. Until then, all options are possible.

That's not to say that Typhoon would automatically be next in the queue if the French deal broke down though. The whole thing could be re-opened to the US and Russia once more, as well as Typhoon, or shelved altogether. But technically, it's still in with a shout, and there are stories of a rethink on price to induce the Indian's to think again. I think this is probably clutching at straws personally, but with £billions at stake, you don't want to die wondering.

Apart from whatever foreign cash and UK employment this deal would have meant, it's a blow to Typhoon's development prospects. Another major operator may have spurred faster development of capability improvements such as thrust vectoring, conformal tanks, AESA radar, fixing glitches and so on. Pity.

hertsman

[RichC]

I'm wondering if the procurement decision may lean towards how they can operate the aircraft once acquired.
India are already building their first indigenous Aircraft Carrier (INS Vikrant) and at 40,000 tonnes, will be in line to operate the Mig-29K. Their second is looking to be a conventional Cat/Wire carrier at 65,000 tonnes. Something the Rafale would be able to operate from.
If they purchase the Rafale they can easily go for the naval variant and operate this aircraft from land bases and the carrier if needed. (Airforce or Navy in other words) and like the RAF Harriers, can be deployed on Navy Carriers.

It would make perfect sense as to why they have chosen the Rafale over Typhoon.

[hertsman]

It was never clear just how important to India the naval capability of their MMRCA was. I know BAE was asked to come up with a design option for a navalised version of Typhoon, but this aspect never got much more than a passing mention in any articles I read about the competition, after the initial request. If it was critical, then Typhoon was pretty much doomed from the start, as it's carrier credentials are years behind Rafale. But F18 was ruled out six months ago so I'm inclined to think it was not the deciding factor.

It would certainly fall into the 'nice to have' category that Rafale brings, although they will have to make their decision at some time as to how many Rafale M's they want to buy or produce out of the 126 programme requirement. Doesn't stop them going the naval route on any follow-on order or licence agreement of course.

hertsman

[RichC]

I would never have thought that India would go for the F18 anyway. It just isn't in for them going by past purchases.

[lmgaylard]

If you look on youtube you will see another incident like this by the same pilot, 2005 i think the year was?
Was talking to Scott loucharan a few years back and he said the pilot did the same thing at 2 display's in 3 week's, he was grounded......

I think this might be one of those displays......

[wokka]

I remember that well. The main memory being how everybody who was sitting down suddenly stood up because from the angle he was heading, we could all see he was going to low followed by mass gasps! Then relief as he was told to can it. I'm sure I remember it being the Friday of the Tattoo?

[steve149c]

I've seen a few of these 'mistakes' over the years, we forget that display pilots are very skilled, but a one second delay in the turn can throw everything off. I say well done, yes he botched it and almost pancaked it - but he didn't bang out like a few pilots do on YouTube!

[T_J]

i've certainly never seen any similar type and size jet get out of a pilot boo boo and drop rate like this before.. ]

Rafale display from a few years ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNvm_1chN3A" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NbVd70fV5E" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;