RAF Cottesmore.

[RichC]

Interesting point you raise about the army pulling out of Germany . I was out there in the mid 80's and could understand why we were there even if we would probably be frazzled fairly early on if everything went wrong. But if it was deemed ok to withdraw the RAF why are the army still there. Germany is hardly the front line anymore .Surely that would free up some funds . Is this another case of us trying to look like a mini US.

A "Vast" amount of army will be out of Germany soon.
They have been building a new garrison at Tidworth (already a large garrison in itself) to accomodate several German based Tank Regiments.
More units will be going 'up north' too i believe to Catterick.

So once they are all out, no more aviation at all will be based in Germany regarding the British.

[JG71]

In response to Tim.I for one do not know how long the MP for Rutland has known about the closure of RAF Cottesmore.So maybe in a sense you could be right.But he is doing something now and doing it full on.So as i have said earlier better to do something than bury your head in the sand.

Yes Labour are selling the RAF down the pan.So we have to fight thier pointless stupidity with all our might.Make Britain great again and defend our shores from those who wish to harm our way of life.I am proud of my country and our isle.That is why i chose to defend it,not sell it down the pan.

Jim.

[garethbrum]

Does this stand as a warning as to why we should keep the armed forces strong, come on wake up MOD, unless you want to held to ransom

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 420774.stm

From Sky News - which does go on to speculate that this is Iran posturing, but still:

A spokesman for the US military confirmed the soldiers had taken control of the oil well but added it was in "disputed territory" near the border and happened fairly frequently.
"There has been no violence related to this incident and we trust this will be resolved through peaceful diplomacy between the governments of Iraq and Iran," he said.
Another American offiicial, Colonel Peter Newell, said: "What happens is, periodically, about every three or four months, the oil ministry guys from Iraq will go... to fix something or do some maintenance.
"They'll paint it in Iraqi colours and throw an Iraqi flag up.
"They'll hang out there for a while, until they get tired, and as soon as they go away, the Iranians come down the hill and paint it Iranian colours and raise an Iranian flag.
"It happened about three months ago and it will probably happen again."

Jim - the strategists in the MOD etc would probably argue that we 'are' currently fighting those who want to harm us here in the UK and as the cupboard is bare we have had to sacrifice some capability in order to provide equipment to those fighting there at the moment. Whatever anyone thinks about the government and the reasons behind the situation we find ourselves in we have had to gamble and prioritise.

[gonk]

Just like with Kuwait,Afghanistan and numerous other previous conflicts the west will try and ignore these 'small' incidents until one day history will once again repeat itself. The only difference this time is that we won't be able to do anything.

The shower that's in power, were started by commissar blair , who stated he was not interested in history, so here's a brief one, Sudetenland, a intro to WW2,grytviken south georgia, an intro to the falklands war, just to mention the harrier won that one.But i suppose i expect to much from our government and the MOD, its a bit like lights on no one at home, or the classic thumb up bum brain in neutral.

[cottesmore09]

I found this on the Peterbrough Today website,

Even the MP of north wes Cambridgeshire has doubts!!

North West Cambridgeshire MP Shailesh Vara, the Parliamentary representative for Wittering, has voiced concerns about the move.

He said: "Clearly this will add extra pressure on Wittering. I have my doubts that this policy is what is needed.

"The government must have a complete strategic defence review rather than making piecemeal measures like this. I just hope Wittering is logistically capable of taking on the changes."

However, retired RAF Wittering Squadron Leader Tony Walsh said: "The military is used to adapting and moving on with changes.

"The decision has been made to move Harriers to Wittering so they will be cared for accordingly."

rest of the story here,
http://www.peterboroughtoday.co.uk/news ... 5913272.jp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

thanks, Cottesmore09

[Sheff]

Think the MP's seem to be failing to grasp what is really going on. I don't think they've realised that this is probably just the first shot in a move to dispose of all the Harriers and close both Cottesmore and Wittering. Fundamentally I think they (and lots of other people) haven't realised just how much money is going to be chopped from the defence budget no matter who wins the election. It's going to be a darn year for defence and politics and I suspect that the saga is going to drag on and on, not least because it's looking increasingly likely that we'll get a hung parliament next May which is going to make things even messier.

Pass me the popcorn...

[Grahame W]

Sheff is dead right. However well meant, all the whingeing, letters to MPs and petitions in the world won't make a ha'porth of difference in the long run. The plain fact is we're in the middle of a global recession, we have an ongoing commitment in Afghanistan, and the defence budget has been described as "massively overspent". And those 22 Chinooks have to paid for somehow. It's no good just saying "blame Gordon". If (perhaps I should say when) the Tories come to power, they will have to face the same problems, and have to inflict savage cuts. If the rumours are right, one of the first things they'd do would be to cancel the carriers - which would be just about the only Tory policy that I've ever been in agreement with! The idea that the Tories are somehow "pro-defence" or "pro-armed forces" simply isn't borne out by past events. I (unfortunately) am old enough to remember the infamous 1957 Defence White Paper which did immense damage to the RAF and the UK aviation industry.

[urkles]

Reading the comments on this thread and others, plus being an ex-serviceman and a spotter, I have tried to think of reasons for this decimation of our defences over the years and thought like a politician, this is what I think they are thinking ;

Europe is now stable, our histrical enemies (those that could realistically invade) are now so intwined with us economically now there is no realistic scenario for a future major european war. We now have a Global economy and the eurozone is part of that, however we may feel we are europeans who work all over the continent. German Companies own British companies, French businesses are working in Italy, the list is endless, any country going to war with another could and probably would bankrupt itself doing so, this is not dimissing history, its how we have evolved. How many countries whose banks and fianicial industries are based in London for example? Look at Airbus, it has to have a stable Europe.

Further afield, China, well China has had disputes with Taiwan for ages, and never invaded, likewise when we owned Hong Kong, so historically it would seem China is unlikely to invade us! Also I believe (im no expert here) that China has invested so much in the Dollar it affectivley owns the United States!

India? expanding hugely yes, but likely to be at war just with Britain? not likely

We have a global econmony now which seems to make it next to impossible for Great Britain to go alone in a future conflict that doesnt directly involve another country econimically. The advent of the internet and cheap air travel means we all have a much better understanding whats going on in the world, we know each other a lot better! We that comes closer relationships and business opportunities, it really is no interest in a developing nation to bite that hand.

So whats left? Rogue nations, these are seen as rogue nations in the eyes of the international community, North Korea, Iran and the Taliban are not going to go to war with just Britain, there is a international will to defeat the instability created by these nations and we will all do this together.The Nuclear threat is very real but again this is not Britains worry alone.

It looks like the UK Armed services has become just part of a wider european defence force alongside the americans, thus all european nations are downisizing to fit into there roles within the community

Then there is Russia, well, facing them is NATO, they will not just bypass Europe and invade the UK, they will have to get passed NATO first, remember thats why NATO was set up.

Look at Gaddaffi, now friendlish to the western world because its in his interests to do so.

Sorry for any spelling mistakes and for other points missed, I am very pro-military but have to see into the minds of those that make the decisions and this is what I feel is similar to what they think so please dont be too abusive if you disagree!!!

Mark

[Tooks]

Interesting post urkles, and can't say I disagree with any of it really!

What I was thinking the other day though, is how quickly the world can change. Rewind 20 years, and we were in the grip of the Cold War. Who would have predicted that Russia would go bust, would be helped financially by the rest of the world, thawing relations somewhat and at a stroke removing the threat of a Russian invasion.

If we could fast forward 20 years, I wonder what the world will look like, and what huge events will have changed the nature of the threats to our country?

That's the challenge that any defence policy needs to meet, and why I'm keen we have an agile and properly equipped airforce (even if that means no Harriers!) that is up to meeting whatever threats may come our way. Removing a defence asset without any real thought about whether it will be needed again is a bit daft to me, recession or no recession.

It seems to me that world events can move much quicker than the development lifecycles of new fighters/defence strategies (911 etc), which is what worries me more than any local closures!

[urkles]

I agree with you Figgis, the Nimrod retirement with no cover for it is totally scandolous, we are streched more than ever, I still have friends on the NSW at Cottesmore who must be gutted after all the promises made when the SHAR was retired way to early, I believe politicians have no clue about how the military is run and just see numbers, with no bearing on support or training. I was just seeing how they must be thinking to make these decisions, that cant be doing them to wind people up!

[urkles]

Agree with you also Tooks, but politicians think in 4-5 years cycles, i.e. to get power every election. Nowadays politicians want the power but not the responsibilty, they want what is now and do not worry about the future.

[gonk]

Defence is supposed to be there just in case your assets are threatened,but you still have to have some, the world is not stable, our gas and some of our oil comes from russia, look how putin is really seen in russia, look at how his opponents are removed, there was a very enlightening documentary on the beeb a few weeks ago , i think it was about how putin was having russia's past "airbrushed", the old hard liners are still there.The middle east is a tinder box and has been for decades, we have problems with irrational governments terrorists and piracy, a hell of a lot of trade goes through the suez canal. Yes in an ideal world the reduction of the forces would be fine, but we dont live in one, once the atom was cracked and we got the A bomb and then the H bomb well that was it , pandora's box was open. Iran, is the one to keep your eye on, it will have enriched uranium in quantity by 2011, it has just tested a medium range missile which can reach parks of europe,pakistan it cant make its mind up which side of the fence it wants to be on,and it has the bomb.As for a european defence force, no thank you, my god , an EEC run defence force, brussels could not run a pee up in a brewery, bureaucrats having meeting after pointless meeting and getting nowhere. I will stick with NATO as it stands, the warsaw pact may have gone but the problem of tyranny has got worse, i just hope government see sense, I never saw it happen, my parents did, a politician waving a piece of paper stating peace in our time.