Police Helicopter crash

[ArabJazzie]

Are we feeling ok Jem! We agree with each other on something!!!

Im not sure about this one as there are too many things that dont add up for me!
Arabest,
Geoff.

[Thunder]

Not meaning to be disrespectful to anyone here but one of the problems that the Police/AAIB are going to have is reliable witnesses. This happened on a Friday night where a lot of the witnesses were pub goers . Not saying they were all drunk far from it(and it doesn't matter if they were) but even a couple drinks alters how the mind and eyes work.

Like Geoff said before it's surprising how quite the EC-135 is, we get the Air Ambulance into my work all the time and half the time you don't even realise it's in. One of the reasons that many Police Forces around the World selected it.

[Tooks]

There is talk on Pprune, by pilots of the type (and others) that this could have been a gearbox failure or drive shaft problem, hence the no rotation of the rotors on impact, quite similar to the North Sea/Shetland incidents whereby the rotors literally stop in flight....and it falls like a brick (which was an account from one witness). But even they, who fly them everyday are speculating. Let's just wait a year and find out then. Then we'll know for sure.

Any similarities to recent North Sea accidents should be ignored!!! Only one was a catastrophic gearbox failure, 2 were precautionary due to indication lights and the most recent, last i looked anyway, was looking like pilot error! However, the final report is still to come.

No CVR, no AFDR, etc. Going to be a difficult one for AAIB, this.

As the AAIB have a complete airframe to sift through, this will be very easy for them to find the issue. You would be surprised what little evidence they have used in the past to meet their conclusions. And considering this is a Police helicopter, im sure the cameras would still have been rolling.

Arabest,
Geoff

It's common practice during transits, and I believe this heli was near to returning to base, to have the very expensive camera in the stowed position to protect it from FOD etc during landing. It may already have been stowed as part of the landing preparations.

It would still have been recording though, so may still yield some useful info.

What seems clear is that this was not a controlled autorotation landing, however hard, so whatever happened was sudden and left the pilot with few options.

[Thunder]

What seems clear is that this was not a controlled autorotation landing, however hard, so whatever happened was sudden and left the pilot with few options.

How can you be so sure?

[Mike]

It simply fell out of the sky, the main rotor wasn't turning and the pilot could do nothing about it.

What a dreadful way to go.

[Tooks]

What seems clear is that this was not a controlled autorotation landing, however hard, so whatever happened was sudden and left the pilot with few options.

How can you be so sure?

Well, obviously I can't be 100%, but as above the lack of rotor damage strongly suggests the blades weren't turning. If as some in the media have suggested, it was a successful autorotation onto a roof which then collapsed after the rotors had been stopped, then I'd have expected the crew to be walking wounded at worst.

Having seen the pictures of the damage, it looks to me more like that consistent with a big fall onto something that gave a little, ie the roof.

Even if it was an autorotation to 30-40ft short, it still looks too badly damaged.

I hope they find out what happened soon.

[ArabJazzie]

Hmmm. According to latest Sky News broadcast, the AAIB have found no evidence of engine or gearbox failure, stating though that the rotors, both main and tail, show no evidence of rotation at impact. Interesting.............

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/spe ... g_spao.cfm

Special bulletin has been released.

Cant read too much into it at the minute.
Arabest,
Geoff.

[wolfie138]

can one of you more knowledgeable bods enlighten me on this : most things are saying that the rotors weren't turning at the point of impact, and indeed on the way down either. what i can't understand, is why? if the engine quit (or whatever caused it), wouldn't the weight of the blades and the fact they were spinning at x-hundred RPM, or whatever it is, mean they'd continue spinning for some time? if the blades stopped DEAD, wouldn't that cause some major structural damage to the blades or bearings, maybe even shearing them off?

[ArabJazzie]

Used to work on fixed wing stuff so might not be right, but i understand a helicopter still requires a fair bit of forward airspeed to keep the rotors turning to arrest the decent enough when autorotating.

As to breaking off, the blades on helicopters are quite substantial and their weight would keep them turning until the drag took over and slowed them down, quite quickly.
Arabest,
Geoff.

[Tooks]

Well, each blade is a wing, and like any wing it can stall.

With no power to the rotor, a high collective position, a high angle of attack of the rotor disc, and free fall, it wouldn't take very long for the rotor to stop. Maybe just a few seconds.

Although not a helicopter pilot myself, I work with many people who are, and I'm told that one pretty standard part of any auto following total power failure is to lower the collective to preserve rotor rpm, and indeed descent can be turned into more rotor rpm via a sort of windmill effect that will speed up the rotor and that energy can then be used to flare the landing.

I've probably not explained that very well, and obviously it's a complex process. Auto's are practiced often by heli pilots, but only to a hover and not usually at night. Obviously, performing them to the ground is likely to damage the aircraft, and at the end of the day it's an emergency procedure and is not guaranteed to work due to all the variables and nature of a given emergency a pilot is trying to deal with.

One thing you do need for a successful auto landing though is forward speed, if anything happens whilst in the hover at low level, then it's difficult to recover from, and there is the risk of using up all your stored energy in an auto and flaring too high or short of your landing point particularly at night or in poor visibility.

[wolfie138]

cheers, i was thinking the inertia of those blades spinning would take a fair while to slow - they certainly seem to on a normal landing.
"indeed descent can be turned into more rotor rpm via a sort of windmill effect that will speed up the rotor and that energy can then be used to flare the landing." that was what i was trying to say about autorotation but as you've pointed out forward speed is also needed.

[andygoole]

EC 135 helicopters grounded by Bond Air Services

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-g ... t-25353001

[LM47]

BBC Radio Scotland reports ban now lifted and 1aircraft flying from Glasgow heliport half an hour ago.
Sadly also reporting a 10th person has died.
RG

[Reptile 1]

More will no doubt follow

BBC Breaking News
A police helicopter which crashed on a busy pub in Glasgow last November suffered a double engine failure, apparently as a result of a fuel supply problem, investigators have found.

The Air Accidents Investigation Branch said the cause of the problem was still not clear.

But it said the fuel pumps appeared to be working and there was no evidence of fuel lines being blocked or of a fuel leak.

[opsjockey]

Thought this was a military forum. Police Helicopters are civvie.. rule 8 of the Forum Rules states Military or Government which are pseudo military. This is neither. Nice how the moderators change the Forum Rules to suit, no point having rules really.....

[keldsyke]

Thought this was a military forum. Police Helicopters are civvie.. rule 8 of the Forum Rules states Military or Government which are pseudo military. This is neither. Nice how the moderators change the Forum Rules to suit, no point having rules really.....

Some people really need to get a life, if that's all you have to worry about with what's going off in the world you're doing well

[opsjockey]

yup, its all I have to worry about! point is, why publish forum rules if they dont apply. I might go and post the entire movements for gatwick in the heads up... its the principle. anyway, I have no wish to debate. thread reported.

[Richard B]

Think you will find that the police are part of our forces in some respect, also Goverment UK tax owned.

[Dan213]

Think you will find that the police are part of our forces in some respect, also Goverment UK tax owned.

Yep, as far as I was aware Police, Coastguard and so on is all aallowed on FC

Sent from my GT-I8160 using Tapatalk

[opsjockey]

police maybe government owned but are not pseudo military. rule 8