Ukraine claims first Su-57

[Thunder]

A HAS only gives blast protection it will not take a direct hit even a from a standard MK82 500lb munition.

[bushande]

Sometimes numbers count and one -35 with four bvr missiles will be at a disadvantage against three -57s with a total of 12.
....

If I may add another aspect regarding the F-35. If what little serious information available out there is halfway correct, it won't matter that much how many missiles one single F-35 has. The major thing about the F-35 that makes modern Western airforces so apparently fond of it seems to be it's networking capability (even more than the stealth aspect). In many ways that seems to change the way tactical air-warfare is conducted and many airforces that employ the F-35 seem to still be learning in regards to that new way of air war tactics that the F-35 seems to offer. The apparently already most common known tactical aspect of what the F-35 can achieve is that it seems to be very capable in exploiting and directing different kinds of weapons from all sorts of different sources within its range. The Italian Air Force seems to have achieved quite some results with it pairing it with their Eurofighters and I am pretty sure the RAF has so as well already, i.e. the F-35 will (IF! everything would work well in an actual case of air war (which we all hope won't ever occur of course)) hardly use it's four missiles but rather use whatever allied aircraft, ships, SAMs, missile batteries etc. which are in its reach as missile sources against any potential opponents. Apparently that is also what the USAF seems to have in mind, i.e. they mainly intend their F-15EX acting rather as a long range missile truck in combination with their F-35s. That at least seems to be the theory according to what can be read up from publicly available sources. The way it is viewed by those in the know seems to be rather as a "force multiplicator" than a conventional fighter anymore.

[dotwatcher01]

Bushande has indeed hit the nail on the head, at the moment the F-35 is in its element in an offensive "package" with 4th gen bombers (F-15 Strike Eagle & derivatives). Just look at what happened in Baghdad where the (R)F-4Gs went in first, then the F-117s then the "mud movers". The "Battle Penguin" has the electronic/jamming powers (but way ahead) of the Gs & the limited bombing capacity of the Goblins, already enhanced with SDBs, but 20 years to get to this stage, hmmm.

[Philly1971]

Pretty sure I saw an article about a previous red flag excercise and how they paired 4th and 5th gen with very successful results.

[Northsky]

I attended a talk in London a few years ago when it was mentioned that there is so much information coming in from these new systems that there are not enough people available to process it all.

[Bilvo]

Sometimes numbers count and one -35 with four bvr missiles will be at a disadvantage against three -57s with a total of 12.
....

If I may add another aspect regarding the F-35. If what little serious information available out there is halfway correct, it won't matter that much how many missiles one single F-35 has. The major thing about the F-35 that makes modern Western airforces so apparently fond of it seems to be it's networking capability (even more than the stealth aspect). In many ways that seems to change the way tactical air-warfare is conducted and many airforces that employ the F-35 seem to still be learning in regards to that new way of air war tactics that the F-35 seems to offer. The apparently already most common known tactical aspect of what the F-35 can achieve is that it seems to be very capable in exploiting and directing different kinds of weapons from all sorts of different sources within its range. The Italian Air Force seems to have achieved quite some results with it pairing it with their Eurofighters and I am pretty sure the RAF has so as well already, i.e. the F-35 will (IF! everything would work well in an actual case of air war (which we all hope won't ever occur of course)) hardly use it's four missiles but rather use whatever allied aircraft, ships, SAMs, missile batteries etc. which are in its reach as missile sources against any potential opponents. Apparently that is also what the USAF seems to have in mind, i.e. they mainly intend their F-15EX acting rather as a long range missile truck in combination with their F-35s. That at least seems to be the theory according to what can be read up from publicly available sources. The way it is viewed by those in the know seems to be rather as a "force multiplicator" than a conventional fighter anymore.

Which if true makes all the close quarters dog-fighting the 48FW performs over East Anglia on a regular basis absolutely pointless. Just keeping pilots in seats, as you describe the "platform" itself utilises other assets and directs them to targets. It may as well be a UAV.

[Bilvo]

I attended a talk in London a few years ago when it was mentioned that there is so much information coming in from these new systems that there are not enough people available to process it all.

It's called AI. Problem solved.

[Vulcanone]

Bilvo

I suspect continuous practice of close in dog fighting is still a good thing as a last resort. I bet they still do it at Red Flag and Red Flag Alaska.?

[dicanio]

Bilvo

I suspect continuous practice of close in dog fighting is still a good thing as a last resort. I bet they still do it at Red Flag and Red Flag Alaska.?

They certainly do. I watched a F-22 in a close in, low energy, turning fight with a F-35 over the Tikaboo Valley, Nevada, in July 2023.

Red Flag 23-3. Incredible to watch.

[Finty]

Sometimes numbers count and one -35 with four bvr missiles will be at a disadvantage against three -57s with a total of 12.
....

If I may add another aspect regarding the F-35. If what little serious information available out there is halfway correct, it won't matter that much how many missiles one single F-35 has. The major thing about the F-35 that makes modern Western airforces so apparently fond of it seems to be it's networking capability (even more than the stealth aspect). In many ways that seems to change the way tactical air-warfare is conducted and many airforces that employ the F-35 seem to still be learning in regards to that new way of air war tactics that the F-35 seems to offer. The apparently already most common known tactical aspect of what the F-35 can achieve is that it seems to be very capable in exploiting and directing different kinds of weapons from all sorts of different sources within its range. The Italian Air Force seems to have achieved quite some results with it pairing it with their Eurofighters and I am pretty sure the RAF has so as well already, i.e. the F-35 will (IF! everything would work well in an actual case of air war (which we all hope won't ever occur of course)) hardly use it's four missiles but rather use whatever allied aircraft, ships, SAMs, missile batteries etc. which are in its reach as missile sources against any potential opponents. Apparently that is also what the USAF seems to have in mind, i.e. they mainly intend their F-15EX acting rather as a long range missile truck in combination with their F-35s. That at least seems to be the theory according to what can be read up from publicly available sources. The way it is viewed by those in the know seems to be rather as a "force multiplicator" than a conventional fighter anymore.

Which if true makes all the close quarters dog-fighting the 48FW performs over East Anglia on a regular basis absolutely pointless. Just keeping pilots in seats, as you describe the "platform" itself utilises other assets and directs them to targets. It may as well be a UAV.

No it’s not, they still have to train for every contingency, hence low flying and practising WVR combat. Why else would heat seeking missiles exist?

[Agent K]

Bilvo

I suspect continuous practice of close in dog fighting is still a good thing as a last resort. I bet they still do it at Red Flag and Red Flag Alaska.?

Stood out in the cold desert near Rachel Nevada and watched dogfighting going on overhead every January for the past number of years, including 24. yes it is still done.

[Philly1971]

The Russians certainly think dogfighting is still important based on the number of Sukkoi fighters being produced with thrust vectoring.