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Mirrorless or not?

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slogen51
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Mirrorless or not?

Post by slogen51 » Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:55 pm

Anyone using a Mirrorless Camera ? There must be a few Sony users out there.

I am thinking about upgrading from a Nikon D3300 to full frame for less than £2000 and have been thinking about the Nikon Z6 as I have a Nikon lens but I am a bit concerned about an electronic viewfinder as I have heard that there can be some lag when panning?

From what I can make out the main point for a mirrorless camera is that the body is lighter and quieter - which for me is not that important so I am hoping the rush to mirrorless will send second hand DSLRs prices down.

I think my upgrade options are Nikon D610 ( cheap but has a OLPF) , Nikon D750 ( not too pricey but has a optical low pass filter ) , Nikon D850 ( expensive but very very good, no optical low-pass filter) , Nikon Z6 (Mirrorless, less expensive than a Z7 , 24M pixel) , Nikon Z7 ( need to win the lottery)

Another question - does an Optical Low-Pass Filter really have a noticeably adverse effect on sharpness?

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Re: Mirrorless or not?

Post by NickC » Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:18 pm

My research into Canon's new mirrorless R series indicates that they are not ideal for photographing moving aircraft. The viewfinder has lag, and the autofocus is nowhere near as fast as on a DSLR (no mirror means no light diverted to dedicated AF sensor, so the image formed on the main image sensor has to be analysed instead, and that is not yet as fast). I suspect the same is true of other manufacturers because they use similar technology, but I don't know for sure.

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Re: Mirrorless or not?

Post by 633 squadron » Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:33 pm

I have a Nikon lens but I am a bit concerned about an electronic viewfinder as I have heard that there can be some lag when panning?
On the newer generation of mirrorless cameras its practically non existent. But EVF may take you a little getting use to.
From what I can make out the main point for a mirrorless camera is that the body is lighter and quiete
Kind of, there not really that much smaller and the glass you put on it will be the same size as a DSLR, mirrorless also can have a far superior frames per second rate as they don't have a mirror, some are like 60fps. You also get much better video features on mirrorless in my opinion. Also dont listen to those who are saying that DLSR's are dieing, they will eventually but it will take a loooooong time :lol: !
I think my upgrade options are Nikon D610 ( cheap but has a OLPF) , Nikon D750 ( not too pricey but has a optical low pass filter ) , Nikon D850 ( expensive but very very good, no optical low-pass filter) , Nikon Z6 (Mirrorless, less expensive than a Z7 , 24M pixel) , Nikon Z7 ( need to win the lottery
All of those cameras are great options, also consider the D500, and the d7200 if your on a budget. And ALWAYS remember that its the glass that really matters! Also bear in mind that the Z6-Z7 arn't Nikons anwser for a professional mirrorless system so they bring out bigger and better mirrorless camers!
Another question - does an Optical Low-Pass Filter really have a noticeably adverse effect on sharpness?
Yes you will if you crop a lot, but you wont really notice it much if you dont.

if i were id probably get a DX camera like the D500 for a few reasons. firstly you have the crop factor on DX wich is 1.5x this basically turns you 300mm into a 450mm lens. Also with a dx camera you get a better pixel pitch over FX. The d500 is also considered to be one of the best sports and action cameras in the world (after the D5). But with a FX DSLR you get better low light performance and more cropability. The d850 is also a very capable camera,just bear in mind that you will need a lot of memory space and a lot of hardrives to back up you photos as its file sizes are astronomical! It really depends on what your needs are as all the cameras you mentioned are great cameras if they are used properly.
For Riat 2018 i used a mirrorless system (Panasonic g7 with the 100-300mm lens) it was a great set up, i only upgraded really becouse i needed more reach. if you head over to my website you can see all of my photos i took at RIAT to give a an idea.
Also a few other worthy DSLR mentions D810, D800E, D4s

Hope this helps a bit with your decision :thumbs:
Last edited by 633 squadron on Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:48 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Mirrorless or not?

Post by 633 squadron » Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:35 pm

NickC wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:18 pm
My research into Canon's new mirrorless R series indicates that they are not ideal for photographing moving aircraft. The viewfinder has lag, and the autofocus is nowhere near as fast as on a DSLR (no mirror means no light diverted to dedicated AF sensor, so the image formed on the main image sensor has to be analysed instead, and that is not yet as fast). I suspect the same is true of other manufacturers because they use similar technology, but I don't know for sure.
the Nikon Z6-Z7 have very capable af systems.
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Re: Mirrorless or not?

Post by daggerfan » Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:06 pm

I can't speak for mirrorless because I've no interest in them, but I'm using a couple of Nikon D610 full-frame DSLRs and I've no complaints whatsoever with them. I've had one D610 for about three years and was using it alongside a D7100 DX body, but I got a second D610 secondhand a few weeks ago so the D7100 has been put in the cupboard until I decide on its fate.

My latest D610 came from Ffordes Photographic and is in lovely condition and cost £699, with a sub-2000 shutter count. There are bargains to be had if you shop around!

I use one D610 with a Tamron 100-400 Di VC USD lens, and the other with a Mk1 Nikon AFS 70-200 f2.8 VR lens, and I've no complaints with either set-up. But I guess in the end it all depends on how critical an eye you have.

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Re: Mirrorless or not?

Post by slogen51 » Wed May 01, 2019 6:23 am

Thanks for the replies

I do use the best glass I can afford - Nikon 70-200 F2.8 VR II ( gold ring and made in Japan) one of Nikon's best lens.

I think I want full frame because I read that the pixel pitch ( pixel size) is bigger and contains more information per pixel and is more suitable for cropping. Also on full frame my lens will be a 2.8 rather than loosing a stop to F4?
Also, people at Mildenhall/Lakenheath have said that in their experience full frame is sharper than DX.

A couple of months back I had almost decided on a second hand D610 as they seem such good value but I think I have over 'googled' my research as I was put off by the OLPF and the news that the earlier Nikon D600 had a product recall due to oil getting on the sensor - a manufacturing fault that Nikon haven't said is fixed in the D610. Again I think I am reading to much and should just go and buy one as they are very good value.

But another voice is saying " treat yourself, go get a D850"
The D850 does create huge image files , although I shoot in JPEG to save post processing time.
I do crop nearly all my shots as I use a Nikon 70-200 VRII

I read that the JPEG rendering is better on the D850 than on the D800-D810 .... Oh god more reading web pages on Google!

So if I get a full frame I would need to use an extender on the lens ( already have the Nikon 1.4X) or crop more heavily which could negate the full frame sensor - aaaarghh! ( Or buy a 300mm lens as most of my shots of fighters are outside the fence)

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Re: Mirrorless or not?

Post by slogen51 » Wed May 01, 2019 6:31 am

I just remembered that the main reason for wanting to upgrade is the better auto focus on the high end cameras.

I think the Nikon D3300 , superceded by the D3500, is a great little camera for under £300 but the auto focus struggles in low light ( cloudy afternoons at Marham) or if the subject has low contrast.

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Re: Mirrorless or not?

Post by Pen Pusher » Wed May 01, 2019 6:43 am

daggerfan wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:06 pm
I can't speak for mirrorless because I've no interest in them,
From an interview with Sigma's CEO, Kazuto Yamaki
Kazuto Yamaki: Correct. And so I see the similarity. Right now, the market is changing from DSLR to mirrorless much quicker than I thought.

Dave Etchells: Yeah. Where do you think we'll end up, or how far will that switch go, I wonder? I mean, of course mirrorless makers like Sony say "DSLRs are obsolete. They're gone; they're history." Canon and Nikon say "Well, they each have their role, and some are good for this, and some are good for that." But what do you think about the direction we're really going in, and where we will end up?

Kazuto Yamaki: I agree with Canon and Nikon. There are pros and cons, but eventually, I think the majority of interchangeable-lens cameras will be mirrorless. Probably 80% will be mirrorless?

Dave Etchells: Yeah, and it's really just a question of how fast we get there, whether it's a couple of years or five years or longer, then?

Kazuto Yamaki: Yes.
https://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2 ... -from-dslr

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Re: Mirrorless or not?

Post by Alan425 » Wed May 01, 2019 8:43 am

Also on full frame my lens will be a 2.8 rather than loosing a stop to F4?
Your lens will still be f2.8 on DX, same as FX, so you won't lose a stop. However you will lose one stop if you use a 1.4x converter on it.

For extra reach I can thoroughly recommend the Nikon 300mm f4 PF. It's compact and light, and very sharp.

Alan

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Re: Mirrorless or not?

Post by slogen51 » Wed May 01, 2019 9:21 am

Hi

I do currently have a DX (D3300) but I think because the sensor is smaller in area then less light is falling on it so that means F/4 - although I am happy to be incorrect in this assumption

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Re: Mirrorless or not?

Post by Alan425 » Wed May 01, 2019 12:52 pm

The size of the sensor makes no difference, the "brightness" (for want of a better word!) of the light falling on the sensor is the same on a DX sensor as it is on an FX one.

So an exposure of, say, 1/1,000 sec at f8 on an FX camera will also be 1/1,000 sec at f8 on DX.

Hope that makes sense!

Alan

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Re: Mirrorless or not?

Post by 633 squadron » Wed May 01, 2019 1:29 pm

yep, the difference is is that with a bigger sensor the camera can collect more light which therefore means you can use a lower ISO which then results in better IQ, this is maybe where the that myth may have come from :)
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Re: Mirrorless or not?

Post by Weazel69 » Wed May 01, 2019 3:20 pm

Hi Mike, I know you are talking Nikon but if you are interested WEX are currently doing the Canon 5D Mk.IV at 2499 which is including a Canon cashback offer
normally 2999 BUT thats body ONLY :Oops:
And Yes before someone say's thats NOT Mirrorless I am well aware of that, just putting a price before Mike ;)
forewarned is forearmed

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Re: Mirrorless or not?

Post by slogen51 » Wed May 01, 2019 7:10 pm

Thanks for the information however I think I will stick with Nikon

When I was growing up I always aspired to owning a proper camera such as a Nikon but only got as far as an Olympus OM-10 followed by a Pentax P30 , even back then Nikon always seemed out of reach price wise.

If a Full frame camera can support a lower ISO than a DX for the same exposure isn't that like gaining a F/ stop?

Edit: having read some more I can see that the aperture is not affected F/2.8 on a FX is also F/2.8 on a DX - still find it weird as there is a smaller field of view and less total light on the DX sensor.

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Re: Mirrorless or not?

Post by 633 squadron » Wed May 01, 2019 7:57 pm

Edit: having read some more I can see that the aperture is not affected F/2.8 on a FX is also F/2.8 on a DX - still find it weird as there is a smaller field of view and less total light on the DX sensor.
this may help,
https://photographylife.com/equivalent- ... ld-of-view
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Re: Mirrorless or not?

Post by Wallace » Wed May 01, 2019 8:42 pm

Interesting your comments about the EVF, I know what you mean. Really weird looking through one and seeing the stroboscopic effect on a prop.

As an aside I use a X-Pro1, when I use the 50-230mm lens I can switch to the optical viewfinder to avoid the shutter lag and being old-school I can pre-focus which helps with framing. (I also turn off the image review in the EVF)

Mirrorless is the future, it will dominate in the end and the cameras are improving all the time.

I wish you success with your new camera

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Re: Mirrorless or not?

Post by tommc » Thu May 02, 2019 6:20 am

Sony RX10 M3. Fixed 24-600mm lens. Fast, lightweight, fantastic for travelling. I traded in all my old Canon DSLR kit for it and would NEVER go back. Here are a few typical ones from familiar places so people can compare for themselves.

01.
Image
German A.400 at Lakenheath, from the forest entrance



02.
Image
Italian KC-767 and F-200s trailling over Mildenhall



03.
Image
MC-130 landing at Mildenhall 11.



04.
Image
RC-135 landing at Mildenhall from The Mound



05.
Image
F-15E turning in to Lakenheath 24 over the forest



06.
Image
F-15 overshooting at Lakenheath runway 24



07.
Image
F-15 overshooting at Lakenheath runway 24



08.
Image
F-15E turning in to Lakenheath 24 over the forest

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Re: Mirrorless or not?

Post by Pen Pusher » Thu May 02, 2019 6:56 am

Wallace wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 8:42 pm
Interesting your comments about the EVF, I know what you mean. Really weird looking through one and seeing the stroboscopic effect on a prop.
I only get the stroboscopic effect when I have my camera on silent shutter. Noisy shutter, no strobing.

Brian

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Re: Mirrorless or not?

Post by sft » Sat May 04, 2019 9:28 am

If you or indeed anyone can afford it - then get a full frame - which it sounds like you are in agreement. Your concern about the size of files is however a valid one. But and this is a big but - I have a D800 full frame by the way - you can easily and rapidly switch it to 1.2x or 1.5x. So I not only can reduce those mbs and solve storage issues if I wish, but I have in effect the best of both worlds a FX and a DX camera in one. The D800 is 36Mp, whereas the 850 is 46Mp. On the D800 a full frame image is about 44mb, @ 1.2x 25mb and 1.5x 18mb approx.

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Re: Mirrorless or not?

Post by slogen51 » Sat May 04, 2019 11:49 am

Thanks

Do you mind if I ask if you shoot Jpeg or Raw?

I shoot jpeg so hoping the files will be smaller

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