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POLL - NATO and Defence Policy

A place to chat and discuss everything and anything thats NOT Military Aviation related. No Civilian Aviation content please. We would be grateful for such inclusions on our sister site - Civilian Aviation.

NATO and Article 5 - member's obligations.

NATO members must assist each other militarily regardless of financial contributions
25
31%
NATO members must be 2% GDP compliant before expecting full military assistance from others
47
59%
NATO can manage without the American military and financial muscle
8
10%
 
Total votes: 80

Tally-ho
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POLL - NATO and Defence Policy

Post by Tally-ho » Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:59 am

The USA will elect a new President on 8 November this year. Donald Trump, the Republican Party nominee, has stated publicly that he thinks it is necessary to take a critical look at the ramifications of Article 5 of the NATO treaty. Article 5 in short says:-

"The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more [NATO members] shall be considered an attack against all".
See the following link for the full NATO text:-
http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/off ... _17120.htm

Now here's the thing -
- NATO expects each member country to budget for and spend 2% of GDP towards its own defence, of which 20% (of that 2%) should be towards equipment. However, only 3 of the 28 NATO members fulfil this criteria - USA, UK, Poland
.
See page 3 graph 5:-
http://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/ ... 11-eng.pdf

Questions:-
- Is it fair, is it right, that you receive full NATO protection if you don't budget for and spend your full 2% on your own defence?
- Why should others carry the cost and responsibility (armaments and manpower) for those who skimp on their defence spending?
- Why do some member countries think it is up to others to come to their rescue, in light of the above?
- There are even those who think that the US military should automatically come to their rescue because the USA is wealthy and powerful. Really?

The bottom line - if you don't budget and spend for your own defence, why should others spend, bleed and die on your behalf?

Thoughts and opinions welcome.
Last edited by Tally-ho on Wed Dec 07, 2016 8:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Tally-ho
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Re: POLL - NATO and Defence Policy

Post by Tally-ho » Thu Aug 11, 2016 3:33 pm

Herewith further evidence of how some NATO members are free-loading and shirking their responsibilities. Germany, one of Europe's largest economies is a prime example, with some pointers to others as well:-

- Germany:-
"German Defence Minister, Ursula von der Leyen, admitted that shortages were so serious Germany could not meet all of its Nato commitments". Only 42 of Germany's 109 Typhoon fighters are available for immediate use because of maintenance issues, only 38 of its 89 Tornado bombers are operational, Germany's KSK special forces had to pull out of a Nato joint exercise because there was no operational helicopter available for them. Germany currently spends only 1.3% of GDP on defence.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... ining.html

- Spain comes in at 0.8% of GDP

- Belgium spends 75% of its defence budget on personnel pay, benefits and pensions (USA 36%)

- Apart from the USA and UK, Poland stands out spending 2.2% of GDP of which a healthy 31% (of that 2.2%) goes on equipment. How's that for setting an example!

This is a small sample of the problems facing NATO. And here we are thinking NATO provides insurance, or can repulse an attack on say the Baltic states? And worst of all, some take for granted that the USA should come to Europe's aid when most NATO members fall far short of their responsibilities?!

jem60
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Re: POLL - NATO and Defence Policy

Post by jem60 » Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:37 pm

Tally Ho. Have you any idea how many poor people live in Poland???

hedgerowops
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Re: POLL - NATO and Defence Policy

Post by hedgerowops » Thu Aug 11, 2016 10:01 pm

None they all live in the UK

jem60
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Re: POLL - NATO and Defence Policy

Post by jem60 » Fri Aug 12, 2016 12:30 pm

No they aren't, and whilst you weren't rude about them, best not be, because my wife's maiden name starts in Z and ended in I, was 12 letters long, and yes, she is half Polish, her father lost his 5 brothers in the war, fighting the Germans, He escaped to here, and fought for us. I can assure you, there are many poor people in Poland. You obviously haven't been there, or you probably wouldn't have been so flippant.
Not really offended, but......... :)

Tally-ho
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Re: POLL - NATO and Defence Policy

Post by Tally-ho » Fri Aug 12, 2016 1:21 pm

jem60 wrote:Tally Ho. Have you any idea how many poor people live in Poland???
No idea and to be brutally frank neither do I care.

I am poor too living right here in England. However, I'm rich in the knowledge that we have good and sensible government which understands the importance of adhering to our NATO obligations, in concert with our American friends and that 'special relationship' between our two countries.

The subject here is NATO and Defence Policy - where do Poland's poor fit in?

jem60
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Re: POLL - NATO and Defence Policy

Post by jem60 » Fri Aug 12, 2016 2:46 pm

It was just a thought that perhaps more should be spent on the inhabitants, rather than weapons. I do take your point though about maintaining a strong force. I guess that they will have to remain poor, whilst the forces are kept up to date.

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C24
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Re: POLL - NATO and Defence Policy

Post by C24 » Fri Aug 12, 2016 6:20 pm

Until I can be certain that each country is using the same formula/accounting system to calculate GDP there seems to me to be little point in this discussion.
C24.
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Tally-ho
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Re: POLL - NATO and Defence Policy

Post by Tally-ho » Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:24 pm

Where and with whom do you think the "formula/accounting system" for GDP is lacking?

As for now, we can only work with the percentages we have, referring to the figures provided (dated 28 Jan 2016) by the NATO website. See link earlier in the thread. I think it is also fair to point out that if the NATO percentages are wrong, then the respective NATO member would have queried it. Surely no NATO member would want to be shown up as a free-loader because of a wrong percentage.

The German Minister of Defence is not querying the figures, she admits to the serious gaps in German military preparedness. Same for the Dutch Minister of Defence. The most visible proof of NATO's deficiencies can be seen in the aggressive posture and build up of Russian forces.

ArabJazzie
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Re: POLL - NATO and Defence Policy

Post by ArabJazzie » Sat Aug 13, 2016 12:37 am

This is something that i really should stay out of, but seen as there is no option there for me to vote with, im gonna put in a tuppance or 2!

The thing that really grips my S&%t is the fact that, being one of the smaller countries in Europe, we are expected to be one of the big powers and renew our Nuclear deterrent! This is at a time when, whether people in this country are of British, Polish, Asian or whatever decent, we have increasing dependence on food banks! Why cant other countries in NATO contribute to what is really a NATO deterrent?

And who thought of 2% of GDP for defense spending? In real money terms, i bet Poland still spend a fraction of what Germany spends!
Arabest,
Geoff.

Tally-ho
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Re: POLL - NATO and Defence Policy

Post by Tally-ho » Sat Aug 13, 2016 5:53 pm

"Smaller countries"
- By what measure? Britain has the 5th biggest economy in the world, possibly 4th soon, we are on course to overtake Germany in the next few years.

"Nuclear deterrent"
- You use the word 'expected'. The British nuclear deterrent is by democratic choice, voted on by parliament with a big majority and with the benefit of cross-party support. No one 'expects' it from us. The overwhelming majority of the British people want it, no need for me to go into the reasons for that in this thread.

"Food banks"
- I don't see the relevance of social issues with NATO and Defence Policy. Suffice to say the military has a budget and social welfare has a budget too.

Thank you for making a contribution and speaking your mind. :thumb:

ArabJazzie
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Re: POLL - NATO and Defence Policy

Post by ArabJazzie » Sun Aug 14, 2016 9:50 pm

Tally-ho wrote:"Smaller countries"
- By what measure? Britain has the 5th biggest economy in the world, possibly 4th soon, we are on course to overtake Germany in the next few years.
Im glad that you see our economy as strong enough to make it up a place in the world league! However i see Brexit and the possible break up of the UK creating some turbulence over the next few years!
Tally-ho wrote: "Nuclear deterrent"
- You use the word 'expected'. The British nuclear deterrent is by democratic choice, voted on by parliament with a big majority and with the benefit of cross-party support. No one 'expects' it from us. The overwhelming majority of the British people want it, no need for me to go into the reasons for that in this thread.
I think you have the wrong end of my stick! The expectation i am on about is not from us in the UK, its from other countries in NATO not having their own Nuclear deterrent because they expect the UK to provide this. But seen as you brought it up, do you really think there is a majority of people in this country that know enough about our Nuclear arsenal to make an informed decision to say whether they want it or not? And cross-party support? Of the top 3 parties, the majority of one party wants it, the next party cant decide what they want on most things, and the 3rd party doesnt want it at all!!! And i bet if it were in their back yards, members of the first 2 parties might just change their minds!
Tally-ho wrote: "Food banks"
- I don't see the relevance of social issues with NATO and Defence Policy. Suffice to say the military has a budget and social welfare has a budget too.

Thank you for making a contribution and speaking your mind. :thumb:
The relevance is, if the electorate were informed enough to make the decision, im sure they would like their taxes to be spent on things like social welfare and the NHS, rather than an extravagance that is of no use against what the government would have us believe is the biggest threat to our nation!
Arabest,
Geoff.

Tally-ho
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Re: POLL - NATO and Defence Policy

Post by Tally-ho » Wed Aug 17, 2016 5:12 am

In your last paragraph you make the following comment -

"... if the electorate were informed enough to make the decision ..."

We had a general election in 2015, we had the EU referendum in 2016 and we had the whole process of electing a new Prime Minister very recently - the point being that the electorate is as politically informed as is humanly possible. Anyone claiming to have not been informed is being economical with the truth, some of course are simply not interested and will never be interested in democratic choices. You also have the riff-raff that prefer mayhem and trouble on the streets.

The British nuclear deterrent, by democratic choice, is thankfully here to stay for the long term and thus far our contribution to NATO, including The Bomb, is sound. We face various threats, Armageddon is one of them. Britain is an active participant and major contributor to NATO, the same cannot be said of all members.

Which brings us full circle - if NATO members don't budget and spend on their own defence, why should others spend, bleed and die on their behalf?

ArabJazzie
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Re: POLL - NATO and Defence Policy

Post by ArabJazzie » Thu Aug 18, 2016 1:32 pm

Tally-ho wrote:In your last paragraph you make the following comment -

"... if the electorate were informed enough to make the decision ..."

We had a general election in 2015, we had the EU referendum in 2016 and we had the whole process of electing a new Prime Minister very recently - the point being that the electorate is as politically informed as is humanly possible. Anyone claiming to have not been informed is being economical with the truth, some of course are simply not interested and will never be interested in democratic choices. You also have the riff-raff that prefer mayhem and trouble on the streets.

The British nuclear deterrent, by democratic choice, is thankfully here to stay for the long term and thus far our contribution to NATO, including The Bomb, is sound. We face various threats, Armageddon is one of them. Britain is an active participant and major contributor to NATO, the same cannot be said of all members.

Which brings us full circle - if NATO members don't budget and spend on their own defence, why should others spend, bleed and die on their behalf?
Sorry bud, but your defense is pretty flimsy if your gonna base it on the 3 items above!

To start with, i am going to go back and add in the Indi Ref! How much of Gordon Browns last ditch promise has been delivered?

2015 General Election - I have to ask how many lies were peddled to get DC re-elected? Dont get me wrong, Labour were not a threat, but i do think there were quite a few people deceived to get the result. I know all we heard from "Scottish" Conservatives was indy this, indy that to try and scare the electorate!

EU Referendum - Lie, after lie, after lie is being uncovered from both sides of the argument!

New PM - Erm, what choice did the electorate get in that one? One party chose a new leader that promoted them to PM. So WE, didnt get the choice, only a small fraction of the UK electorate were entitled to do that!

So to bring to a point! The wider electorate CANNOT be informed if the are not given all the facts, which they will never get if they are lied to!

So go around all the NATO nations with yir cap and get them to hand over the difference to 2% GDP and get them to contribute to their deterrent!
Arabest,
Geoff.

nickowen
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Re: POLL - NATO and Defence Policy

Post by nickowen » Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:46 pm

The government of the Untied Kingdom is indeed spending its 2%. But is it spending it wisely?

Tally-ho
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Re: POLL - NATO and Defence Policy

Post by Tally-ho » Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:53 pm

@ArabJazzie

A general election, a referendum, the whole process of electing a new PM (by Tory MP's) and then your added Indi Ref - and you deem that insufficient information for the public to be informed? All those processes over a two year period and you say that is insufficient information to make democratic choices? All those debates, all the media coverage, the pamphlets, posters, people at your door ... and you say people can't make informed decisions? You must be taking the mick?! :D

You complain about lies, they are the essence of politics, you need to sift through them. :)

Am I right in saying we seem to agree on NATO members having to pay their 2% towards own defence, before expecting others to bleed and die on their soil? :S

Tally-ho
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Re: POLL - NATO and Defence Policy

Post by Tally-ho » Thu Aug 18, 2016 3:01 pm

nickowen wrote:The government of the Untied Kingdom is indeed spending its 2%. But is it spending it wisely?
I think so.

What's your thinking on it?

nickowen
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Re: POLL - NATO and Defence Policy

Post by nickowen » Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:29 pm

I've no idea. I'm not an expert, but clearly many on here are.

ArabJazzie
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Re: POLL - NATO and Defence Policy

Post by ArabJazzie » Fri Aug 19, 2016 1:22 pm

Tally-ho wrote:@ArabJazzie

A general election, a referendum, the whole process of electing a new PM (by Tory MP's) and then your added Indi Ref - and you deem that insufficient information for the public to be informed? All those processes over a two year period and you say that is insufficient information to make democratic choices? All those debates, all the media coverage, the pamphlets, posters, people at your door ... and you say people can't make informed decisions? You must be taking the mick?! :D

You complain about lies, they are the essence of politics, you need to sift through them. :)

Am I right in saying we seem to agree on NATO members having to pay their 2% towards own defence, before expecting others to bleed and die on their soil? :S
Im with nick in questioning, but i dont think we are spending our money wisely! Maybe other countries are better than us and dont need to spend 2%? I doubt you considered that!

Again your defense of public information is flimsy. You cant have a debate in a slagging match, the media is biased towards their loyalties, most pamphlets end up in the bin, posters are ignored and people only tell their chosen candidates they support them, the rest are told to GTF! So i stand by that most people in this country cannot make an informed decision on defense and Nuclear deterrent!

And i have not complained about the lies, i have used them to make my point. And having listened to political lies for 30+ years, i think ive figured that out a while ago!

And im gonna take you back to a previous comment you made! "You also have the riff-raff that prefer mayhem and trouble on the streets." Find that a bit insulting having been one spotting trip away from becoming riff-raff! :halo:
Arabest,
Geoff.

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Fat Bob John
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Re: POLL - NATO and Defence Policy

Post by Fat Bob John » Sat Aug 20, 2016 2:31 pm

Given that by some methods of counting we only recently got back to the 2% target and only, allegedly, by including certain elements if not all of the Intelligence budget we maybe shouldn't be quick to point fingers. Personally I'd like to see our figure a fair bit higher but hey I grew up in the Cold War and basic Income Tax rates a lot higher than they are now so I guess we got more bangs for our bucks then..

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