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UK to extend Typhoon OSD to 2040 and form additional two sqn

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Gary
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UK to extend Typhoon OSD to 2040 and form additional two sqn

Post by Gary » Fri Nov 06, 2015 12:42 pm

UK May Retain Early Model Typhoons To Maintain Numbers

POSTED BY: GEORGE ALLISON NOVEMBER 6, 2015

Speaking in the House of Commons, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence, Philip Dunne, said that the Ministry of Defence is currently reviewing its earlier decision to retire 53 Tranche 1 Typhoon combat aircraft in 2018.

Asked by Toby Perkins:

“To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, what assessment he has made of the consequences for the UK’s capability of the retirement in 2018 of the 53 Typhoon aircraft purchased in tranche 1; and if he will reverse this decision in the 2015 Strategic Defence and Strategic Review.”

Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence, Philip Dunne answered:

“The Ministry of Defence is reviewing the potential utility of all its current platforms, including its fleet of Tranche 1 Typhoon aircraft, as part of the ongoing Strategic Defence and Security Review. Where there is clear merit in extending the life of existing equipment in terms of both military utility and value-for-money, the opportunity to do so will be considered in the context of the wider Review. It is therefore not appropriate to anticipate decisions on the Typhoon Tranche 1, or other capabilities, that have not yet been made.”

The RAF currently field 192 combat aircraft, made up of 87 Tornados; 53 Tranche 1 Typhoons; and 52 Tranche 2 and Tranche 3A Typhoons, deliveries of which are ongoing.

General Sir Nick Houghton, the Chief of the Defence Staff, used an air power conference in London to publicly warn how thinly stretched the RAF is. He said the RAF was now at “the very limits of fast jet availability and capacity”.

BAE Systems, which makes Typhoon are lobbying for the MoD to upgrade the Tranche 1 Typhoons.
Info from UK Defence Journal
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Re: UK May Retain Early Model Typhoons To Maintain Numbers

Post by markranger » Sat Nov 07, 2015 2:08 pm

You would like to think that they would keep them,
Let's be honest there is nothing wrong with them,
They were the preferred jets in Libya and used as QRA at Coningsby.

Obviously not useless.

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Re: UK May Retain Early Model Typhoons To Maintain Numbers

Post by TARGET » Sat Nov 07, 2015 8:18 pm

Possibly because they cant find a buyer for them.Malaysia was rumoured but this appears to have died the death.

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Re: UK May Retain Early Model Typhoons To Maintain Numbers

Post by Wingman_90 » Sat Nov 07, 2015 10:36 pm

Maybe they'll give the two-seaters to the Reds!
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Re: UK May Retain Early Model Typhoons To Maintain Numbers

Post by Rockstar » Mon Nov 09, 2015 1:17 pm

The Tranche 3 Typhoons which are being introduced over the next 5 years or so will be integrated with new sensors and weapons including the Brimstone air to ground missile, Meteor air to air missile and Storm Shadow cruise missile while the Selex Advanced Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar is due around 2022. This will make them the most potent of the Typhoon force, but this does not of course suddenly render the Tranche 1 jets useless and redundant. In my view they should be kept to allow them to concentrate on a more specific role for which they are perfectly capable. If they are kept, on my reckoning, once all Tranche 3 jets have been delivered, that should give a total of 160 Typhoon jets in service comprising the 53 Tranche 1 and 107 Tranche 2 and 3.

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Re: UK May Retain Early Model Typhoons To Maintain Numbers

Post by markranger » Mon Nov 09, 2015 1:37 pm

Rockstar wrote:The Tranche 3 Typhoons which are being introduced over the next 5 years or so will be integrated with new sensors and weapons including the Brimstone air to ground missile, Meteor air to air missile and Storm Shadow cruise missile while the Selex Advanced Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar is due around 2022. This will make them the most potent of the Typhoon force, but this does not of course suddenly render the Tranche 1 jets useless and redundant. In my view they should be kept to allow them to concentrate on a more specific role for which they are perfectly capable. If they are kept, on my reckoning, once all Tranche 3 jets have been delivered, that should give a total of 160 Typhoon jets in service comprising the 53 Tranche 1 and 107 Tranche 2 and 3.

My thoughts Exactly, On the Air Defence side they are as good as the Tranche 2 and 3s before the New Radar so why not have a couple of Out and Out Air Defence Sqns with a secondary Role of Ground attack (Paveway II)
They can also take over QRA Duty,

That then freeing up The others to be Ground attack only or multirole.

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Re: UK May Retain Early Model Typhoons To Maintain Numbers

Post by the concerned » Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:35 am

What about a order for tranche 3b's to satisfy bae's order books

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Re: UK May Retain Early Model Typhoons To Maintain Numbers

Post by markranger » Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:42 am

http://aviationweek.com/blog/predicting ... umor-alert

Another Mention on keeping some Tranche 1 Typhoons for Homeland security,+ Red Air, 100sqn maybe?

Quote
The Tranche 1s would be retained for U.K. air defense, training and as red-air aggressors for other units. First evidence of this was the recent transfer of Tranche 1 jets to the Falkland Islands in the South Atlantic in September 2015, six years after the first four aircraft were sent down there. Rumor suggests that 30 of around 50 Tranche 1 aircraft will be retained. The biggest challenge for the Royal Air Force will be manning the squadrons however.
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Re: UK May Retain Early Model Typhoons To Maintain Numbers

Post by Andy_99 » Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:26 pm

Maybe the newer jets may be required for a bit of work in Hot & Dusty climes in the near future.

Keep the Tranche 1's for Air Defence & then the Newer jets can replace the Tonka in most Bombing & CAS roles.

Don't think the Typhoon can forfil the reconnaissance role current performed by the tonka though.

Or in a dream world keep the lot

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Re: UK May Retain Early Model Typhoons To Maintain Numbers

Post by jetnoise » Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:37 pm

I thought I read somewhere (but can't remember where), that the Tranche 1 jets needed a major airframe fatigue mod to keep flying. This of course would be rather expensive and in the current economic climate may not be viable. :S
I also seem to remember that the T3 buy wasa compromise - the customers wanted to cancel them all together but the cancellation costs would have meant it would have been cheaper to buy them in the first place. The resultant order for half the original quantity (defined long ago) was a bit of a compromise.
Still the SDSR is due out in the next few weeks, so may be we'll find out then.

Can't see the RAF being able to buy any more though. :(
(It wouldn't surprise me if the F-35 order was cut back to have only enough to put on the carriers - :Oops: - sorry - carrier (single).
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Re: UK May Retain Early Model Typhoons To Maintain Numbers

Post by Wingman_90 » Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:24 pm

Since the F-35 does not have a twin-seat variant, obviously all the OCU training for the F-35 will be conducted synthetically (i.e. with simulators). So it stands to reason that if the RAF are willing to accept that for the F-35, then they likely will for the Typhoon too. As such, I suspect that even if the Tranche 1s are retained, 29 Sqn will likely have no T3 twin-seaters in the future.

So that begs the question - what happens to all the T3's (16 airframes I count)? Scrap them? Given that the Red Arrows will need a Hawk T1 replacement towards the end of this decade, that seems silly.

Since the Reds will likely use only British-delevoped aircraft (I can't see them using second hand F-16s as has been suggested), the only two options will be to give the Reds Hawk T2s, or Typhoons. I highly doubt that new Hawk T2s will be ordered for the Reds, which would mean that at least 9 Hawk T2s would have to be taken out of the RAF's existing fleet of 28 Hawk T2s at Valley, leaving only 19 available for training. Given that we will only be getting 10 T-6 Texan IIs to replace the Tucanos, that may indeed be enough to satisfy future training requirements, but it's questionable.

The other option would be to give 10 or so Typhoon T3s to the Reds. Of course they would be more expensive to operate and would need some kind of smoke pod modification, but if the Reds had Typhoons then there would be no need for 29 Sqn's Typhoon display, which over the past year has taken at least 3 airframes out of operational use. So it would only really be 6 extra Typhoons needed for display purposes. And that assumes that the Reds will continue to fly with 9 aircraft, but that of course might reduce due to budget constraints.

Note the model on Red 6's desk from this photo he posted on Twitter!
https://twitter.com/RAFSynchro1/status/ ... 5219646464

Anyway, it's interesting to ponder nonetheless. It remains to be seen whether the SDSR will include an announcement on the future of the Reds.
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Re: UK May Retain Early Model Typhoons To Maintain Numbers

Post by Rockstar » Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:27 pm

Wingman_90 wrote:Since the F-35 does not have a twin-seat variant, obviously all the OCU training for the F-35 will be conducted synthetically (i.e. with simulators).
Not necessarily. I thought it was announced earlier this year that five F-35Bs will be used to deliver OCU services at Marham from July 2019 when pilot conversion training for the UK F-35 force (in co-operation with a US Marine Corps) will cease in the USA. Unless this has changed?

I am not sure that this SDSR will deal with the future of the Reds, although this perennial issue is no doubt overdue to raise its ugly head sometime soon. I believe the current Hawk T1s are likely to reach the end of their serviceable life around 2018 to 2020 so there is plenty of time for the powers that be to change their minds numerous times between now and then. If they do continue beyond then, for me, there is only one realistic option – the Hawk T2. If the reds are deemed so important to continue, airframes will be found. As ever, time will tell of course.

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Re: UK May Retain Early Model Typhoons To Maintain Numbers

Post by Doughnut » Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:55 am

If (big if) the proposal to have a aggressor squadron of Typhoons comes off one could see the dominos falling like this.

Ten Typhoon T3 replace the 100sqn Hawk T1 at Leeming.
100sqn form a five aircraft display team, four standard colour scheme + solo display special colours, this relieves 29sqn of the job.
This is proposed for the 2018 season and the 100th Anniversary of the RAF
The 2018 season is declared the last for the nine Hawk T1 of the Red Arrows
2019 the Hawk T1 is retired and the five Typhoons take over as the Red Arrows at Leeming.
Scampton can close. Indeed why not move the Red Arrows to Leeming ASAP
With the Red Arrows gone from Scampton could the BBMF move from Coningsby ? Remember this has been suggested before but it never happened Do not know why ?

Will the cost of operating five Typhoons, flown at few events, be any more than nine Hawk T1 + the current solo Typhoon ?

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Re: UK May Retain Early Model Typhoons To Maintain Numbers

Post by Phoon » Thu Nov 19, 2015 10:06 am

Wingman_90 wrote:Since the F-35 does not have a twin-seat variant, obviously all the OCU training for the F-35 will be conducted synthetically (i.e. with simulators). So it stands to reason that if the RAF are willing to accept that for the F-35, then they likely will for the Typhoon too. As such, I suspect that even if the Tranche 1s are retained, 29 Sqn will likely have no T3 twin-seaters in the future.

So that begs the question - what happens to all the T3's (16 airframes I count)? Scrap them? Given that the Red Arrows will need a Hawk T1 replacement towards the end of this decade, that seems silly.

Since the Reds will likely use only British-delevoped aircraft (I can't see them using second hand F-16s as has been suggested), the only two options will be to give the Reds Hawk T2s, or Typhoons. I highly doubt that new Hawk T2s will be ordered for the Reds, which would mean that at least 9 Hawk T2s would have to be taken out of the RAF's existing fleet of 28 Hawk T2s at Valley, leaving only 19 available for training. Given that we will only be getting 10 T-6 Texan IIs to replace the Tucanos, that may indeed be enough to satisfy future training requirements, but it's questionable.

The other option would be to give 10 or so Typhoon T3s to the Reds. Of course they would be more expensive to operate and would need some kind of smoke pod modification, but if the Reds had Typhoons then there would be no need for 29 Sqn's Typhoon display, which over the past year has taken at least 3 airframes out of operational use. So it would only really be 6 extra Typhoons needed for display purposes. And that assumes that the Reds will continue to fly with 9 aircraft, but that of course might reduce due to budget constraints.

Note the model on Red 6's desk from this photo he posted on Twitter!
https://twitter.com/RAFSynchro1/status/ ... 5219646464


Anyway, it's interesting to ponder nonetheless. It remains to be seen whether the SDSR will include an announcement on the future of the Reds.
The solo Typhoon does not take any aircraft out of operational use. The airframe used for practices frequently flies one or two normal training sorties with 29(R) sdn on the same day that it is used for displays. Most display's are at weekends so apart from a bit of extra maintenance the impact on availability for the current training programme is minimal.

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Re: UK May Retain Early Model Typhoons To Maintain Numbers

Post by EGDR » Mon Nov 23, 2015 1:17 am

We will be extending the life of our multirole Typhoon for 10 extra years through to 2040, meaning we will be able to create 2 additional squadrons. This will give us a total of frontline 7 squadrons, consisting of around 12 aircraft per squadron.
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Re: UK to extend Typhoon OSD to 2040 and form additional two

Post by Gary » Mon Nov 23, 2015 1:27 am

Topic name changed, let the long debate start over which squadrons will get the numberplate and where they will end up :lol:
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Re: UK to extend Typhoon OSD to 2040 and form additional two

Post by EGDR » Mon Nov 23, 2015 1:33 am

I have a feeling that will have more discussion on its own than the rest of the SDSR :lol:

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Re: UK to extend Typhoon OSD to 2040 and form additional two

Post by Vulcanone » Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:13 am

I can't remember which is the most senior of all the fighter Sqns by forming date, but 19,23 surely came before 43 or 111?

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Re: UK to extend Typhoon OSD to 2040 and form additional two

Post by Harkins » Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:17 am

Can anyone tell me how many aircraft we currently have in each of our existing 5 Typhoon squadrons? If they are just pinching a couple of aircraft from each of the current squadrons, will that mean everything stays where it is base wise and that this can be implemented fairly quickly? I'm just not sure how extending he life of the Typhoon allows two additional squadrons. If they're actually getting new aircraft, I assume that it'll be at least a couple of years until either of the new squadrons are active.

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Re: UK to extend Typhoon OSD to 2040 and form additional two

Post by Agent K » Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:22 am

Harkins wrote:Can anyone tell me how many aircraft we currently have in each of our existing 5 Typhoon squadrons? If they are just pinching a couple of aircraft from each of the current squadrons, will that mean everything stays where it is base wise and that this can be implemented fairly quickly? I'm just not sure how extending he life of the Typhoon allows two additional squadrons. If they're actually getting new aircraft, I assume that it'll be at least a couple of years until either of the new squadrons are active.
If I understand correctly then the plan seems to be to keep Tranche 1 aircraft in service which were previously due to be replaced by the latter Tranche 3 aircraft, hence the additional numbers in effect.

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