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SDSR 2015

All discussion about the 2015 SDSR in here please.
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Gary
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SDSR 2015

Post by Gary » Sun Nov 01, 2015 9:51 pm

Friday 27th is the fateful day I believe, or that's the date being touted for the SDSR. Can all info linked to the review be posted into the following section viewforum.php?f=311
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Re: SDSR 2015

Post by Vulcanone » Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:49 pm


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Re: SDSR 2015

Post by Bushpilot » Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:06 pm

I should imagine that there are a few last minute rewrites given the events of the past weekend and the announcements of extra funding for the intelligence services.
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Re: SDSR 2015

Post by markranger » Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:23 am

http://aviationweek.com/blog/predicting ... umor-alert

Another Mention on keeping some Tranche 1 Typhoons for Homeland security,+ Red Air 100sqn maybe?

Quote
The Tranche 1s would be retained for U.K. air defense, training and as red-air aggressors for other units. First evidence of this was the recent transfer of Tranche 1 jets to the Falkland Islands in the South Atlantic in September 2015, six years after the first four aircraft were sent down there. Rumor suggests that 30 of around 50 Tranche 1 aircraft will be retained. The biggest challenge for the Royal Air Force will be manning the squadrons however.
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Re: SDSR 2015

Post by Wingman_90 » Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:49 pm

There are some interesting rumours going around on PPRuNe, namely:

-The Chinook HC3s are to be sold to save upgrading them to HC5 standard
-2x C-17s are to be sold to New Zealand
-The AAC's Defenders are to be transferred to the RAF
-The BBMF is to become a civil charity(!)
-RAF Boulmer is to close

http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation ... mours.html
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Re: SDSR 2015

Post by EGVP » Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:16 pm

Wingman_90 wrote:-The Chinook HC3s are to be sold to save upgrading them to HC5 standard
There are already HC.3s in upgrade.
Wingman_90 wrote:-2x C-17s are to be sold to New Zealand
The RAF want more, not less!
Wingman_90 wrote:-The AAC's Defenders are to be transferred to the RAF
Surely the other way around. Northolt Station Flight is part of 5 Regt AAC now.
Wingman_90 wrote:-The BBMF is to become a civil charity(!)
Makes perfect sense, and keeps the MAA happy.
Wingman_90 wrote:-RAF Boulmer is to close
Is Boulmer needed any more?

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Re: SDSR 2015

Post by Wingman_90 » Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:30 pm

EGVP wrote:The RAF want more, not less!
With regard this point - actually, a study has shown that once the A400M is fully operational, there will be an excess amount of strategic airlift capability in the RAF (but a shortage of tactical). So it is for this reason that some C-17s could be sold.
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Re: SDSR 2015

Post by Wingman_90 » Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:52 pm

So what is everybody's "wishlist" for the SDSR? Mine is as follows:

-Retention of Tranche 1 Typhoons.

-Investment in Typhoon recce pod capability.

-Investment in new anti-radar missile to replace the ALARM.

-Open competition for a new multi-mission aircraft that could perform the duties of Sentinel, Shadow, and MPA. Would include the capability to be used as a self-designating "bomb truck".

-Procurement/leasing of a few V-22 Ospreys, for use as carrier-based transport/tanker. Also could be used for SF roles lost with C-130J retirement.

-Investment in an E-3D upgrade in line with France's E-3F and USAF's DRAGON program.

-Procurement of air-to-air refueling pods for the A400M.

-Addition of a refueling boom to the Voyager KC2's. Also sell off the Voyager surge fleet to European users and use A400M as surge tankers.
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Re: SDSR 2015

Post by KyleG » Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:33 pm

Wingman_90 wrote: -Addition of a refueling boom to the Voyager KC2's. Also sell off the Voyager surge fleet to European users and use A400M as surge tankers.
Big problem with that is the Voyagers aren't the RAF's to sell. I've also heard that (this may or may not be true) there is a clause in the PFI agreement meaning the RAF can only use AirTanker's aircraft in their own refuelling fleet.
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Re: SDSR 2015

Post by Wingman_90 » Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:59 pm

KyleG wrote: Big problem with that is the Voyagers aren't the RAF's to sell. I've also heard that (this may or may not be true) there is a clause in the PFI agreement meaning the RAF can only use AirTanker's aircraft in their own refuelling fleet.
Yes, I've heard of that clause too, although I don't know how much weight it actually carries.

Maybe the best that could be done is to give AirTanker "permission" to lease the surge fleet to whomever wants them, dropping the requirement that they remain available for UK use, thus shifting the support costs away from the MoD.

A big benefit of having refueling pods on the A400M is that it would eliminate the need to have a Voyager permanently based in the Falklands, since the A400M (that would be based there anyway for transport purposes) would be able to fulfill both the transport and tanker roles. This would free up an extra Voyager for UK ops.

Maybe if the "we'll order some booms" carrot were dangled, AirTanker would agree to re-negotiate the "refueling exclusivity" clause.
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Re: SDSR 2015

Post by Vulcanone » Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:03 pm

Oh Do keep up Wingman90 :halo:

The original RAF order for 25 A400Ms was cut to 22 as the last three were meant to have an AAR capability. But unfortunately AirTanker threw its toys out the cot saying that we provide the tankers with our airframes not anyone else.

And so the last three were binned


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Re: SDSR 2015

Post by EGVP » Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:10 pm

Apologies, this is going to be quotation hell so I hope I get it right!
Wingman_90 wrote:With regard this point - actually, a study has shown that once the A400M is fully operational, there will be an excess amount of strategic airlift capability in the RAF (but a shortage of tactical). So it is for this reason that some C-17s could be sold.
It depends. The A400M isn't a strategic airlifter, it's not a tactical one either, it's somewhere in the middle. The C-17 is the best long range, large payload transport aircraft in existence, and the fact the RAF have recently started work on building up their AAR capacity on them, suggests they are here to stay. Remember, the C-17 has three times the range of an A400 even before it is refuelled! The A400M would work brilliantly on unprepared strips, the C-17 less so. It is important to have both.
Wingman_90 wrote:-Procurement of air-to-air refueling pods for the A400M.
What would we refuel from the A400M? Certainly not helicopters as Airbus have admitted it's a futile plan!
Wingman_90 wrote:-Addition of a refueling boom to the Voyager KC2's. Also sell off the Voyager surge fleet to European users and use A400M as surge tankers.
Agree re the KC.2, fitting a boom would be a smart move, but a costly and time-consuming one. I think there's only two KC.2s in the main fleet, too? Doubt they could fit a removable boom to the surge fleet! Speaking of the surge fleet, these are already planned to be leased out, with the first one currently earning a living with Thomas Cook. Airline service was always the plan, as it mitigated some of the costs of the airframes. See above re refuelling from an A400M.

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Re: SDSR 2015

Post by Rockstar » Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:41 pm

Rumours aside, four key things which we should expect in the SDSR are;

Detail on any precurement of an MPA
Confirmation on the number of Fast Jet squadrons the RAF will retain
The final number of F-35B Lightning II fighters to be purchased
Whether to retire all of the C-130J fleet by 2022

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Re: SDSR 2015

Post by page_verify » Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:34 pm

A few thoughts based on some previous posts and reading small bits here and there:

The recent events in Paris won't have any impact on the SDSR, a 5 year plan isn't going to alter just because of a single regional event no matter how ghastly it was

What's been announced this week about additional intelligence and SF funding was already going to happen

No doubt, the intelligence spend will come under the defence spend enough to be counted as part of the UK's 2% commitment

Unless something's changed, it's correct that only AirTanker are allowed to supply AAR services to the UK for the duration of their PFI contract. It's also unclear if there's actually any need for helicopter AAR.

The Army's Islanders may well join the RAF

The Tornado is going to be here long enough to cause a WSO manning "consideration"

More Predators

Maybe the E-3 will finally be put to bed if we "review" our NATO commitments, by telling them we're not paying or providing aircraft anymore

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Re: SDSR 2015

Post by Harkins » Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:55 pm

page_verify wrote:Maybe the E-3 will finally be put to bed if we "review" our NATO commitments, by telling them we're not paying or providing aircraft anymore
Could you or anyone expand on this a little? I didn't know the Sentrys were close to getting the chop. Is it because they're old or is it because they're simply not necessary any more? A Cold War relic? I had heard that two out of about eight is as good as it gets now, as far as getting them airborne is concerned.

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Re: SDSR 2015

Post by reheat module » Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:10 pm

If you're referring to the E-3D fleet, then you're being extremely optimistic in 2 from 8 on both counts...
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Re: SDSR 2015

Post by page_verify » Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:59 pm

One of the reasons they haven't been chopped before is that we're committed to providing NATO with AEW force resources - either aircraft or funding towards the shared European fleet. The government have always insisted we'd get better value for money by maintaining our own fleet rather than just giving raw cash to NATO - but that decision was made back in an era when the RAF had a large maritime fleet, routinely needed strategic AEW resources and had more aircrew. Today, every pot of cash has to go as far as possible on whatever's needed the most, the role of AEW may still exist but is very different to the early 90s and there's a shortage of Navigators/WSOs and Flight Engineers - neither of which we currently have the capability to produce more of.

There's suggestion on PPrune that a smaller AEW platform based on the 737 might be considered if we were to pick the P-8 to allow for a common airframe. I don't think we have the money to make such a large investment, unless it also replaced the Sentinel.

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Re: SDSR 2015

Post by wokka » Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:52 am

The defence editor for The Times just posted this on Twitter


Deborah Haynes ‏@haynesdeborah 36m36 minutes ago
The RAF is set to receive 3 extra fast jet squadrons in defence review next week: 2 operational Typhoon squadrons and 1 for training 1/

Deborah Haynes ‏@haynesdeborah 34m34 minutes ago
Up to 36 Typhoon jets to be taken out of storage. Original variant will do air defence, freeing up later variants for fighter-bomber role 2/
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Re: SDSR 2015

Post by Thunder » Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:04 am

Do you get the feeling she's been reading this forum :whistle:

If true will be interesting to see the basing arrangements.

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Re: SDSR 2015

Post by Doughnut » Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:27 am

The Sentry's AEW role could be "retired" in the same way the loss of Nimrod MRA4 was managed. The RAF takes a capability gap in the AEW role, relying on NATO to provide the service.
A bilateral agreement with our new best friends France could be made with RAF donating the best Sentry airframes and spares to supplement the four that France uses, guess some aircrew could transfer as well.
RAF Waddington becomes a detachment base for a French / NATO / USAF AWACS and still has the flight sim / ground based training system.
The removal of the eight RAF Sentry's and all the heavy maintenance required to support them free up a big hangar and ramp for .....

Let me think .....

How about basing the shiny new P-8 there, and we still get to keep the golf course :clap:

The runway extension work was originally stated to be able to operate the RC-135 safely. No new hangars ever proposed for the RC-135, assume they would share with the E-3's. If the E-3 goes more space for RC-135 / P-8.
Indeed very long term plan could be to operated an AEW version of the B737. Who else other than Turkey and Australia have them ?

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