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UK Confirms 9 Boeing P-8's to be purchased

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Malcolm
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Re: UK Confirms 9 Boeing P-8's to be purchased

Post by Malcolm » Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:24 pm

Bluetail wrote: Seems a very strange response to me, considering I've seen the following operate out of Kinloss in recent years, C-17, AN-124, DC-10 B-707, E-3A, TU-154 all very much heavier than a P-8, and all after major upgrade work to the runway at Kinloss in 1996 and 2006. Now as for Lossiemouth, why do you think they backtrack when landing on 23, its because the northern taxiway is way to narrow, which leads me to think similar major upgrade work to the taxiways needs to be done, which is not the case at Kinloss.

The real answer is that they don't want to be proven wrong for the decision to shut Kinloss, so to save face they will shoehorn everything into Lossie, which actually want be a problem.
All the types you mention have multiple wheels/bogies per main undercarriage leg, and this spreads the weight around. Some even have 3 or 4 main undercarriage legs. The P8 only has 2 legs and 2 tyres per leg. Runways have multiple weight classifications depending on the wheel arrangement - Also, whilst I've no doubt all the types have operated from Kinloss, how can you know what their all up weight's at the time were? It is routine for 'heavy' types to take of from smaller airstrips with either reduced fuel or payload. B737's have to do this all the time at Bristol airport which is only 6600'. B757's can take off fully loaded, even though they have a higher MTOW.

For me the main point is that Kinloss is only 7500' long. The B737-800 requires 8000' to take off under all conditions. The P-8 has a heavier MTOW than a B737-800 so that may require even longer. Basing P8 at Kinloss means they can't always take off at MTOW, and with us having no sovereign IFR capability for the P8 that is a capability limiter which we don't want or need to accept. Yes they could probably extend the runway by 500' - after all they are doing exactly that at Waddo, and nothing has gone wrong with that plan has it? :halo:

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Bluetail
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Re: UK Confirms 9 Boeing P-8's to be purchased

Post by Bluetail » Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:19 pm

Nimrod MR2, Zero Fuel weight 86,000 lb, Max TOW 192,000 lb x4 Spey @ 12,160lb (48,640)
Nimrod MRA4 Zero Fuel 114,000lb Max TOW 232,000 x 4 BR710
Significantly heavier

P-8A Zero Weight 138,296lb, Max TOW 189,201 x 2 CFM 56 @ 27,000lb (54,000)

Nimrod was heavier and in my 16 years on them MAX TOW in later years was nearer 200K with Zero Fuel over 100K, and we were operating Nimrods taking off at with Max Fuel all the time, and remember they were going to operate MRA4 out of Kinloss and would have done so with Max Fuel. It was standard practise to have the SAR Standby loaded with a full fuel load.
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Jabba
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Re: UK Confirms 9 Boeing P-8's to be purchased

Post by Jabba » Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:25 pm

Lossie runway 23/05 is 453 METRES (1,486 feet) longer than runway 26/07 at Kinloss. I haven't read the whole thread and I apologise if this was mentioned earlier but another possible factor in the decision could be the bird activity at Kinloss at certain times of the year made operations difficult as evidenced by the crash of a Nimrod shortly after take-off on the 17th November 1980.

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gamecock
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Re: UK Confirms 9 Boeing P-8's to be purchased

Post by gamecock » Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:26 pm

All the types you mention have multiple wheels/bogies per main undercarriage leg, and this spreads the weight around. Some even have 3 or 4 main undercarriage legs. The P8 only has 2 legs and 2 tyres per leg. Runways have multiple weight classifications depending on the wheel arrangement
Which is why the P8 had to operate from Teesside Airport a couple of years ago - Leeming couldn't take them either.

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Re: UK Confirms 9 Boeing P-8's to be purchased

Post by page_verify » Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:21 pm

Rumour over on PPrune that the P-8s will be based at Waddington.

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Re: UK Confirms 9 Boeing P-8's to be purchased

Post by baz1 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:42 pm

they could well be 'and the RCs well that's another story to unfold!
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Re: UK Confirms 9 Boeing P-8's to be purchased

Post by page_verify » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:54 pm

Does Waddington have the space seems to be a genuine question that's been asked - for anything new.

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Re: UK Confirms 9 Boeing P-8's to be purchased

Post by Spitfire88 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:25 am

There going to lossiemouth, RAF lossiemouth Facebook page had an a paragraph on there last week about the future of lossiemouth being the Typhoon and the P8. I don't really understand why people still speculate when the RAF have already confirmed the P8's will be based at Lossiemouth. See the last paragraph.


FINAL FORMAL SORTIE FOR RAF LOSSIEMOUTH TORNADOS

XV(Reserve) Squadron, the Tornado Operational Conversion Unit, will complete its final formal flying on Friday 17 March 2017. The disbandment of the Squadron, after 102 years’ of service, on Friday 31 March 2017 will see the end of the Tornado GR4 era at RAF Lossiemouth.

To mark the end of this period in the Station’s history Tornados from XV(Reserve) Squadron will carry out a final formal sortie that will include flying by Aberdeen and Leuchars airfields and Tain Air Weapons Range. These sites have all been instrumental in the training of aircrew at RAF Lossiemouth to operate the Tornado. The aircraft will return to RAF Lossiemouth in the early afternoon to carry out a series of flypasts over the Station.

Over the past 24 years the Squadron has been the life-blood of the front line ensuring the squadrons were provided with combat capable aircrew. The final ab-initio pilot finished his training at the end of January, and the last refresher pilot, returning from a tour instructing at RAF Valley, graduated at the end of February.

Whilst the Tornado Operational Conversion Unit will cease from 31 March, the RAF will continue to utilise the Tornado GR4 until it is finally withdrawn from service in 2019.

Wing Commander Paul Froome is the Officer Commanding of XV(Reserve) Squadron, and will pilot one of the aircraft taking part in the final sortie. He said:

“Being able to fly in this final sortie of Tornado GR4s from RAF Lossiemouth is a great honour for me.

“Whilst it may be sad to see the Tornado leave Moray and Scotland, the aircraft has given many years’ of great service to the RAF, and continues to do so in the form of the frontline Tornado squadrons at RAF Marham supporting current operations.

“The disbandment of XV(Reserve) Squadron is a milestone in the drawdown of the Tornado fleet, but I can say hand on heart that every member of the Squadron, past and present, has delivered an exceptional level of service and commitment to the Tornado fleet and the RAF.“

RAF Lossiemouth will maintain the provision of Quick Reaction Alert (Interceptor) North on a 24/7 basis as its primary role. The Station will also see growth in the near future as a fourth Typhoon squadron is formed here and P8 Poseidon Maritime Patrol Aircraft are based here.

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Re: UK Confirms 9 Boeing P-8's to be purchased

Post by RubyRoo » Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:28 am

Will there be an upgrade/widening of taxiways adjacent to the main runway?

Does anyone have an idea in which part of the airfield it is likely the P-8's will be sitting? (Please don't say 'an apron').

Is there actually enough space to house 9 P-8's as well as 4 Typhoon squadrons? I wonder what happened to the much talked about 2 extra Typhoon squadrons. Was it all noise in the SDSR rather than substance? Who knows. There was even talk of a 3rd extra Typhoon squadron being formed. To me, it makes sense to put these 2/3 extra Typhoon squadrons at Leeming and have 100sqn take over the aggressor role utilising Typhoon Tranche 1's.

It would make sense to have a small detachment of P-8's to either St. Mawgan/Waddington in case the runway at Lossie is out of action. It's never sensible to have all your eggs in one basket, and due to the P-8's range limitations, having a couple dotted around the country allows us to cover more sea/ocean a lot quicker, especially since they have no in flight refuelling capability with MRTT.

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22A
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Re: UK Confirms 9 Boeing P-8's to be purchased

Post by 22A » Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:01 am

Will all investment in airfield improvements be postponed pending the next Scottish independence referendum?

Lossie
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Re: UK Confirms 9 Boeing P-8's to be purchased

Post by Lossie » Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:10 am

If you want to know about the RAF's plans for its P-8A Posiedons and their base at RAF Lossiemouth the current issue of Aviation News incorporating Jets magazine has an exclusive interview with
the head of the UK's P-8A programme, Air Commodore Ian Gale. The article is 5 pages long.
More info here on the issue:
http://www.aviation-news.co.uk/view_issue.asp

Contrail1958
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Re: UK Confirms 9 Boeing P-8's to be purchased

Post by Contrail1958 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:57 am

Here we go..
Kinloss has always been rumoured to be the favoured option amongst many around Waddington
and there is good reason. Nearest to operating area's etc etc.
A local source only last week ignored the goings on at Lossiemouth with the money already being spent
and "Bolthole" mentioned later in the year and said that he had heard "Grass cutter One" tell of a reliable
source say he saw builders near Kinloss main gate. :pop:

Phoon
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Re: UK Confirms 9 Boeing P-8's to be purchased

Post by Phoon » Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:40 pm

Spitfire88 wrote:There going to lossiemouth, RAF lossiemouth Facebook page had an a paragraph on there last week about the future of lossiemouth being the Typhoon and the P8. I don't really understand why people still speculate when the RAF have already confirmed the P8's will be based at Lossiemouth. See the last paragraph.


FINAL FORMAL SORTIE FOR RAF LOSSIEMOUTH TORNADOS

XV(Reserve) Squadron, the Tornado Operational Conversion Unit, will complete its final formal flying on Friday 17 March 2017. The disbandment of the Squadron, after 102 years’ of service, on Friday 31 March 2017 will see the end of the Tornado GR4 era at RAF Lossiemouth.

To mark the end of this period in the Station’s history Tornados from XV(Reserve) Squadron will carry out a final formal sortie that will include flying by Aberdeen and Leuchars airfields and Tain Air Weapons Range. These sites have all been instrumental in the training of aircrew at RAF Lossiemouth to operate the Tornado. The aircraft will return to RAF Lossiemouth in the early afternoon to carry out a series of flypasts over the Station.

Over the past 24 years the Squadron has been the life-blood of the front line ensuring the squadrons were provided with combat capable aircrew. The final ab-initio pilot finished his training at the end of January, and the last refresher pilot, returning from a tour instructing at RAF Valley, graduated at the end of February.

Whilst the Tornado Operational Conversion Unit will cease from 31 March, the RAF will continue to utilise the Tornado GR4 until it is finally withdrawn from service in 2019.

Wing Commander Paul Froome is the Officer Commanding of XV(Reserve) Squadron, and will pilot one of the aircraft taking part in the final sortie. He said:

“Being able to fly in this final sortie of Tornado GR4s from RAF Lossiemouth is a great honour for me.

“Whilst it may be sad to see the Tornado leave Moray and Scotland, the aircraft has given many years’ of great service to the RAF, and continues to do so in the form of the frontline Tornado squadrons at RAF Marham supporting current operations.

“The disbandment of XV(Reserve) Squadron is a milestone in the drawdown of the Tornado fleet, but I can say hand on heart that every member of the Squadron, past and present, has delivered an exceptional level of service and commitment to the Tornado fleet and the RAF.“

RAF Lossiemouth will maintain the provision of Quick Reaction Alert (Interceptor) North on a 24/7 basis as its primary role. The Station will also see growth in the near future as a fourth Typhoon squadron is formed here and P8 Poseidon Maritime Patrol Aircraft are based here.
You know as well as I do how quickly policy changes that is why people speculate, regardless of money spent usually (look at the massive bungle of the Nimrod programme itself). Whilst Lossiemouth is currently the stated intended MOB for our P8s much can and will change before they enter service. The RAF are now watching the outcome of a possible second Scottish referendum which may or may not have consequences on Scottish basing. A change of top command at RAF or MOD level may see the incoming top officers prefer basing elsewhere, or when and if the additional Typhoon squadrons stand up a review of operations may determine that Lossiemouth cannot handle the extra accommodation and facilities required for 4 FJ units and a P8 squadron. So despite what has been announced I would suggest that it is far from set in stone that P8s will be at Lossiemouth. Rumours currently doing the rounds suggest such diverse ideas as Waddington, an alternative plan to base at Waddington but with a detachment at Lossie, Leuchars and even reactivating Kinloss - of course they are most likely to be nothing but rumours.

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Thunder
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Re: UK Confirms 9 Boeing P-8's to be purchased

Post by Thunder » Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:49 pm

Phoon wrote: that Lossiemouth cannot handle the extra accommodation and facilities required for 4 FJ units and a P8 squadron.
You sure about that, cause I'm very certain it can.

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gamecock
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Re: UK Confirms 9 Boeing P-8's to be purchased

Post by gamecock » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:17 pm

No he can't, that's why he said:
a review of operations may determine that Lossiemouth cannot handle the extra accommodation and facilities required for 4 FJ units and a P8 squadron.
How can you be so sure Lossie can handle that lot anyway? It's more than just pan space. There's domestic and technical accommodation, utilities, IT infrastructure etc. etc.

The analogue (and I literally mean pre-computer) days of dozens of Jags, Hunters and Shacks all being located on one base are long gone.

Contrail1958
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Re: UK Confirms 9 Boeing P-8's to be purchased

Post by Contrail1958 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:44 pm

gamecock wrote:No he can't, that's why he said:
a review of operations may determine that Lossiemouth cannot handle the extra accommodation and facilities required for 4 FJ units and a P8 squadron.
How can you be so sure Lossie can handle that lot anyway? It's more than just pan space. There's domestic and technical accommodation, utilities, IT infrastructure etc. etc.

The analogue (and I literally mean pre-computer) days of dozens of Jags, Hunters and Shacks all being located on one base are long gone.[/quoty
You are 100% correct Steve there is no way the road at 23 would sustain more heavy traffic and poor parking.
Where are all these evaluations before money is being spent. What with paying sub contractors/Rolls Royce etc.. ;)

Phoon
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Re: UK Confirms 9 Boeing P-8's to be purchased

Post by Phoon » Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:28 pm

Thunder wrote:
Phoon wrote: that Lossiemouth cannot handle the extra accommodation and facilities required for 4 FJ units and a P8 squadron.
You sure about that, cause I'm very certain it can.
if you had read my post correctly you would have noted that I said 'may determine that Lossiemouth cannot'.

I personally hope Nicola get's her way, and Lossiemouth can handle the two Cessna 172s that will form the attack element of the SIAF (Scottish Independent Airforce), and all the other units are moved south of the border. :P

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gamecock
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Re: UK Confirms 9 Boeing P-8's to be purchased

Post by gamecock » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:28 pm

Where are all these evaluations before money is being spent. What with paying sub contractors/Rolls Royce etc..
I'll have you know our prices are very competitive! :thumb:

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Re: UK Confirms 9 Boeing P-8's to be purchased

Post by Bluetail » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:29 am

I would suspect loads of stirring up going on from those in Lincolnshire, Waddington although on the outset appears to have plenty of space to park aircraft they currently have a huge issue with Airmans accommodation on base, its already full to overflowing I,ve heard, so where are all the support staff and that includes Sqn offices etc going to be put. Bottom line is there is no space left at Waddington.
Secondly there is a nice posh hotel in Elgin currently the home to some 30 plus of Boeings finest already in place setting up the P8 required infrastructure. The P8s will be based at Lossiemouth.
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Re: UK Confirms 9 Boeing P-8's to be purchased

Post by page_verify » Tue Apr 04, 2017 11:41 am

From what I remember crew saying at RIAT last year, the RAF's first two aircraft were being "fast tracked" in the production line to fill the immediate capability gap.


Boeing receives $2.2bn deal for 17 P-8As
04 April, 2017

Boeing has secured a $2.2 billion contract covering 17 P-8A Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft destined for the US Navy, the Royal Australian Air Force, and the Royal Air Force.

The deal includes options for 32 additional aircraft, and money for long-lead parts for future orders, says Boeing. Overall, the entire contract could be worth $6.8 billion if all options are exercised.

Of the 17 aircraft, 11 will go to the US Navy, four to Australia, and two to the RAF. The RAF aircraft are the first two examples of a nine jet order, and will be delivered in 2019.


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... as-435845/

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