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New fears for Tornado fleet - ITV News now (18:30)

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RichC

New fears for Tornado fleet - ITV News now (18:30)

Post by RichC » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:32 pm

After the Libyan crisis, the headline
"Flying High", new fears for the Tornado fleet (!!!!!)

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Gary
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Re: New fears for Tornado fleet - ITV News now (18:30)

Post by Gary » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:36 pm

Wonder if its linked to yesterdays Guardian article
Cuts could cost RAF its fleet of Tornados

Exclusive: MoD spending crisis means planes could be rushed out of service, rather than phased out over several years

Under last year’s defence review, the RAF’s approximately 100 ­Tornados were due to be phased out over several years.

The RAF's entire fleet of Tornado ground attack aircraft could be rushed out of service because of a fresh spending crisis at the Ministry of Defence, the Guardian has learned.

With the department trying to find an extra £1bn savings before the end of the spending round next month, ministers and senior military officials have been presented with a range of unpalatable options.

One involves the immediate withdrawal of the RAF's eight Tornado fighters in Afghanistan, followed by an accelerated withdrawal of the rest of the fleet from service, possibly within three years. Other options include axing thousands more soldiers from non-combat units in the army, or withdrawing more ships from the Royal Navy's already diminished fleet.

"It's a complete mess," said one Whitehall source. "The government wants the military to play a role on the global stage, but the MoD is running out of money to meet its commitments." Any withdrawal from the mission in Afghanistan would cause uproar, but the Tornados are vulnerable because there are only a few of them there, and they could be deemed non-essential: it would still leave more than 100 fast jets from other countries.

Under last year's strategic defence and security review (SDSR), the RAF's 100 or so Tornados were due to be phased out over several years, with the RAF still having a rump of 18 by 2015.

But decommissioning all of them, and more quickly, is now considered a possibility. Under this scenario, the MoD would try to accelerate into service more Typhoon aircraft, the Tornados' long-term replacement. This option may have become more attractive because the MoD is no longer expecting to sell some of its Typhoons to Oman in a £600m deal.

Professor Malcolm Chalmers, a defence expert at the Royal United Services Institute (RUSI), said: "If all the Tornados are withdrawn from service before 2015, it will be further evidence of just how difficult a task balancing the MoD's books is proving to be. It would be a significant further capability cut in addition to those announced in the SDSR. It is unlikely to be the last as the MoD struggles to meet the savings target it has been set."

He added: "The MoD is consciously choosing to allow gaps in medium-term capabilities – such as carriers and now fast jets – to develop so that it can focus its limited resources on Afghanistan … and on long-term investment programmes. Yet this strategy is predicated on the assumption that, post-2015, the cuts in the MoD will be quickly reversed. If this does not happen future defence reviews will have no other choice than to turn temporary capability gaps into permanent ones."

The scramble to identify cuts has come about because the MoD underestimated the cost of commitments made at the time of the SDSR, which was published last October. For months before the review, the MoD had been expecting to make cuts based on an overall budget reduced by 4%. But with days to go before the review was due to be finalised, defence officials realised the Treasury wanted cuts of 8-10%.

"It was done far too quickly. The MoD tried to do a new defence review in days. It was a farce," said a source.

The defence secretary, Liam Fox, now needs to sign off new cost cuts by the end of March unless the Treasury softens its hardline stance. One option could even see the Treasury making a loan to the MoD to help it through the next year or two.

Earlier this month the Guardian revealed that the Royal Navy would no longer be sending a warship to patrol the Caribbean, where it has played an active role in counter-narcotic and disaster relief operations.

Twelve Chinook helicopters which were promised by the government in the autumn's defence review may also become casualties of the cuts. Peter Luff, the defence procurement minister, has said the contract is "subject to negotiation".

The MoD refused to be drawn on the discussions about cuts. A spokesman said: "A number of different options are being considered. We cannot say with any clarity what those decisions will be. No decisions have been taken yet."

BAE Systems, which part-builds and has a support and maintenance contract for the UK's Typhoons, also refused to be drawn, particularly over any deal with Oman. "That is a matter for the Ministry of Defence," a spokesman said.

Before the SDSR, all three services fought bitterly to protect their own personnel and forces, with the Navy and the RAF bearing the brunt of the cuts. The RAF is likely to be furious if the Tornado is sacrificed as part of the spending round.

The RAF now has 71 Typhoon aircraft, which were delivered in two tranches. It has been reported that the first tranche of 48 could already be obsolete by 2015.

In 2009 the RAF ordered and is awaiting delivery of another 40 of the more modern tranche 3 Typhoons.

It is envisaged that the Typhoon and the Joint Strike Fighter, currently under development, will be the RAF's main attack aircraft from 2020.
Info from guardian.co.uk

RichC

Re: New fears for Tornado fleet - ITV News now (18:30)

Post by RichC » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:39 pm

Time for revolution like Libya then!

GOOSE

Re: New fears for Tornado fleet - ITV News now (18:30)

Post by GOOSE » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:40 pm

Just shows how you can't predict anything and therefore need the means to be prepared for all eventualities.

RichC

Re: New fears for Tornado fleet - ITV News now (18:30)

Post by RichC » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:53 pm

It is the reason the ITV news piece is on about, rushing out the whole fleet as soon as possible.

jones243

Re: New fears for Tornado fleet - ITV News now (18:30)

Post by jones243 » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:00 pm

Just curious but can we defend the UK with Tucanos or have I missed the day the news said that theyre going aswell Or do grobs get the job :grr:

Mark

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Re: New fears for Tornado fleet - ITV News now (18:30)

Post by Gary » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:02 pm

Heard a tornado get airborne today and the pilot mention he was on a PAX trip :lol: Lucky git journalist :whistle:
Trainman wrote:£1bn by the end of March,easy

Get out of Afghanistan now.

Les
You think that is the best solution? If they wasn't in Afghanistan government would see the military as an easy target and decimate the forces more.

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Re: New fears for Tornado fleet - ITV News now (18:30)

Post by Unknown74 » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:17 pm

Na it'll be a few Squadrons of Cadets in Grob 115 Tutors!?!?!?! For Air Defence.

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Re: New fears for Tornado fleet - ITV News now (18:30)

Post by Bolar » Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:01 pm

Send all our Aircraft to Malta they may be safe there :huh:
Believe there are no limits but the sky.

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Re: New fears for Tornado fleet - ITV News now (18:30)

Post by das » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:38 pm

hows about we use the 1billion pounds that we all paid in taxes towards things like defence for that purpose and not give it away to india as a gift without our say so !!!!!!!

BennyBoy

Re: New fears for Tornado fleet - ITV News now (18:30)

Post by BennyBoy » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:52 pm

Folks....

Dont forget about the "BIG SOCIETY"

Maybe we can all volounteer as Fast Jet Pilots!

That will save this goverment a few bob in wages

;)

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Re: New fears for Tornado fleet - ITV News now (18:30)

Post by markranger » Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:59 pm

jem60 wrote:Guess if we all paid 10pence more in the pound in income tax, then we could stop all these cuts . What was that I heard, you didn't want to do that?, well, cuts it will have to be then, because we haven't got any money, only debts.
Do you save that much money though?Millions have been spent in making these jets and support for them to last to 2020.The Harrier also had a midlife update.what a waste.
You are robbing Peter to pay Paul.
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Re: New fears for Tornado fleet - ITV News now (18:30)

Post by Phoon » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:24 pm

If this is true, which I would think is then it as just about the final nail in the coffin of the RAF as an effective fighting force. I had a feeling that this government wouldn't stop at the Harrier, and we have to face it, will not stop with the Tornado. Just some points on the subject:

1. The Red Arrows must surely be ripe for disbandment, how can an Airforce with just 3 front line fast jetsquadrons (assuming the Tornado units go immediately) support a full time aerobatic team, with airframes that are 30 years old, we no chance of replacement aircraft. True the Reds do lots of flag flying for the UK and its industry, If it is to continue in any form then sponsorship must come from those it benefits, the shambles that is BA sytems ought to part finance them, they have taken enough from the British taxpayer. Abolishing the Reds, although unpopular would free up the recources for a front line squadron, and lets face it, the disbandment of the Reds in the near future is inevitable.

2. Why do the RAF always take the brunt of the cuts?, It has been said that the Army have a large say with the government, lets see how an army fare in the next conflict we fight in without any suitable topcover, and the next conflict WILL happen and WILL catch us unprepared and WILL be a different war yet again from the one we are currently involed in.

3. A major reduction in numbers, and what we pay them of top ranking officers is required. It has been said that the RAF could man another front line fast jet squadron with the savings made, but it seems, as with every goverment organisation that these peeple will not part with there jobs, Is this because these are those reponsible for 'advising' the government were savings can be made?

4. No more mistakes with future equipment purchases. The whole Nimrod MR4 programme and its abandonment must surely be the most expensive financial mistake this country has ever made, but it isn't confined to this, Typhoon, good a platform as it is, was grossly over budget and late. The Frence apparantley have a smaller defence budget than ourselves, but now have a superior airforce.

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Re: New fears for Tornado fleet - ITV News now (18:30)

Post by WAP » Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:13 am

Its ok, we dont need any armed forces, William Hauge will phone any potential threats and express his grave concern at their actions!
Cheers! Jamie

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Re: New fears for Tornado fleet - ITV News now (18:30)

Post by tonkatom » Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:26 am

I think that thus will finish with a very small amount of tornado gr4s left out if the whole fleet or "when" the war in afghanistan is over,then like the sentinel,willbe immediately disbanded.
If the gr4 fleet is ended soon,then thus government has seriously left us venerable and can see us getting chuckedout of NATO
May the skies be clear and blue and the wind fair with a guiding star to steer by.

dunmailbiffa17

Re: New fears for Tornado fleet - ITV News now (18:30)

Post by dunmailbiffa17 » Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:29 am

No chance of a Military Coup now...as the Military is being destroyed as quickly as possible,and this is why we fought for our lives in WW2...so we could give up.All this and India gets stronger,China gets stronger Russia gets stronger and even the pirates in Somalia are laughing,democracy you have failed us,time to get the hell out of here.

cottesmore09

Re: New fears for Tornado fleet - ITV News now (18:30)

Post by cottesmore09 » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:08 am

Well when all the RAF serviceman loose there jobs, employee them in the scrap yard as they seem to be getting plenty of work on recently which is expected to increase as the year goes on :@....

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Re: New fears for Tornado fleet - ITV News now (18:30)

Post by The Phantom » Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:30 am

These are sad times - and we as a country will never recover from them. I'm not surprised if they disband the Tornado or at least cut huge numbers - there's no way they'll just stop at the Harrier.
And it was mentioned elsewhere in this post about the Red Arrows - yes it would be no surprise at all if they were axed at any time (and several times Blair and Brown wanted to get rid of them!) The Red Arrows say they are a great recruitment tool for attracting youngsters to a life in the RAF... well i'm afraid with all these cuts, sackings and redundancies that's not going to be the case anymore.

Continuous governments have shafted the RAF. And this lot will probably put the final nails in the coffin! :grr: :grr: :grr:

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Re: New fears for Tornado fleet - ITV News now (18:30)

Post by markranger » Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:08 am

I can't see Tornado's being around after 2015 but do people really think they are going to now?
No ground attack?
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Re: New fears for Tornado fleet - ITV News now (18:30)

Post by gonk » Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:24 am

I did here the sentinel mentioned as well as the tonka,dont forget chaps our government is just looking after it paymasters,the banks and the city who bank roll them.The loss of these RAF assets will mean less capability in combat, and may result in more loss of life.

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