Jets on takeoff general question

[Vulcanone]

Ghastly Whisper is correct.

Living near Binbrook i watched countless sortie flown by the F.3s and T birds without afterburners.

As for Jaguar, the pilot of XX733 lost his life, forgetting to select burner on Take off at Coltishall in 1996 the aircraft took the barrier but ended up in a field off runway.

T

[Vulcanone]

2 Airliners with afterburners martmpf.

Not forgetting the Tupolev Tu-144.

[martmpf]

Correct, and thanks for the reminder. I never thought it entered service, but apparently it did, but not for long!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-144

[Thunder]

2 Airliners with afterburners martmpf.

and there was me thinking there were 3

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v155/ ... neFire.jpg

[capercaillie]

Last time a Lightning appeared at Mildenhall show, I video'd it's take off on both days.No re-heat. Video'd Thunder City's F.6 Lightning at Cape Town in 2005.Very long runway. No reheat on take-off. I believe for the early Lightnings that it was necessary to use it tho'.

I thought the Lightnings only departed the show on Sunday in 1988 after being on static all day Saturday? Anyhow those commenting about long take off runs in Lightnings are talking utter gibberish, as GW points out, it had masses of power, even in the fat F6. For a 1950s design with incredibly swept back wings it was a sensation, here is a demonstration of how short the take off run was in a T5, very sad occasion however.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBlPrJ_4VOY

[jem60]

I may well have the date wrong. It wasn't the last Mildenhall. I was in John's field for that one. The occasion I mentioned was when it was a Strike Command demo with a camouflaged RAF F4, a Hawk, the Lightning [a green one] and I think a Tornado. Every winter I promise myself that I will catalogue all my videos' but Senior Management always comes up with something that stops me.
The last take off video was especially poignant for me, for I was at Overburg and Ysterplatt shows in 2005, and had much talk with David Stock, who sadly lost his life on that flight. Airshows, always great pleasure to be had, but sadly, some sadness from time to time. I couldn't believe the accident report on Mr. Stock's accident. Horrendous maintenance failings, which is partly why the CAA would not accept Lightning maintenance from a civilian company.

[jem60]

MARTIN MPF 16 Tu144's built, I think two were crashed, including the Paris Airshow accident. After very much prolonged and expensive engineering, it eventually was able to fly further, higher, and faster than Concorde, but could not sustain supersonic flight without reheat. It was extremely thirsty, extremely noisy [inside as well as out] extremely unreliable, and extremely expensive, so the hole thing was cancelled due to it's continuing inefficency.

[Ghastly Whisper]

Last time a Lightning appeared at Mildenhall show, I video'd it's take off on both days.No re-heat. Video'd Thunder City's F.6 Lightning at Cape Town in 2005.Very long runway. No reheat on take-off. I believe for the early Lightnings that it was necessary to use it tho'.

I thought the Lightnings only departed the show on Sunday in 1988 after being on static all day Saturday? Anyhow those commenting about long take off runs in Lightnings are talking utter gibberish, as GW points out, it had masses of power, even in the fat F6. For a 1950s design with incredibly swept back wings it was a sensation, here is a demonstration of how short the take off run was in a T5, very sad occasion however.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBlPrJ_4VOY

Plainly uses afterburner in that video.

[Vulcanone]

Indeed Dave Stock (RIP) did use afterburner on that last display flight of a Lightning. And you can see the mass of fuel spilling out at the start of the take off. That was never a good sign.

Awaiting our new captain expert on flying Lightnings to step up with nah we can still do it. And You who replied in PMs known what my thoughts are on this


Good day Gentleman

[jem60]

Hi,Vulcan. Close up pictures of David Stock's last take off show that there was already a small fire underneath the rear of the aircraft about four feet from the end of the tail pipe. If only the canopy ejection had worked...................

[capercaillie]

I may well have the date wrong. It wasn't the last Mildenhall. I was in John's field for that one. The occasion I mentioned was when it was a Strike Command demo with a camouflaged RAF F4, a Hawk, the Lightning [a green one] and I think a Tornado. Every winter I promise myself that I will catalogue all my videos' but Senior Management always comes up with something that stops me.

That was 1986, three Lightnings flew, all F3s, one was the solo display aircraft and two for the air to air engagement with two Hawks. I was there and I can't remember if they did or not, will have to try and find some pics. Its easily possible the solo didn't use a/b as it was taking off initially to formate in the Hawk/Lightning/Phantom/Tornado flypast before starting its solo and F3s had very poor fuel consumption due to big engine/little belly combo. Similarly the two for the air to air may have done the same as they were on CAP until the Hawks attacked? 31 years ago, makes me feel old.

[jem60]

Capercallie. Memory plays funny tricks. aAs you say, 30 years plus ago!!. You are absolutely right about the solo lightning. I was at the take-off end, and my video shows no afterburner, a low turn to the left to join up with the formation. I cannot for the life of me remember any other Lightnings there at the time. { I used to suffer from amnesia once, but I can't remember when that was!!]. and if they were there, why in Hells name why didn't I video them!!!.

[martmpf]

Indeed Dave Stock (RIP) did use afterburner on that last display flight of a Lightning. And you can see the mass of fuel spilling out at the start of the take off. That was never a good sign.

Awaiting our new captain expert on flying Lightnings to step up with nah we can still do it. And You who replied in PMs known what my thoughts are on this


Good day Gentleman

Fires around the jet pipe/afterburner/tail section were quite common in all Lightnings. This was generally believed to be due to leaks in the fuel lines (to afterburners) or tail/rudder hydraulics in a very hot part of the aircraft. In flight, this could lead to burn through of the hydraulics to the tail/rudder and subsequent total loss of control. Photographic evidence indicates this is what may have happened to Dave Stock. Even for the time, the Lightning had quite a high total attrition rate.

Mentioned earlier in this thread was “poor maintenance”. This was not necessarily the case. I knew a chap very well I shall refer to as P.D., through my (divorced) mum. He worked for BAC in their hangar at Binbrook. He explained to me that due to the design/construction in this aft section of the aircraft, some parts there could not be checked/inspected due to the very tight fitting of the outer skin and the supporting formers. You could not get your hand/arm in, let alone see. If pressure tests indicated no leaks, then it had to be assumed all was OK. These tests were not performed every flight, far from it. The fundamental problem was that pressurised flammable fluid pipes passed too close to hot engine parts. These facts probably contribute to the CAA’s reticence to allow these to fly again, they are even older now! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_a ... _Lightning

A good friend, I met frequently in the Wheatsheaf pub, Bargate, Grimsby, was Flt Lt Neil "Clachy" MacClachlan along with his five work colleagues. They rented a house a few hundred yards from the pub, opposite the college for anybody local. “Clachy” and his mates were Binbrook Lightning pilots that practiced drinking for England. He told me (although admitting it was an old saying) that during pilot pre flight checks “if it wasn’t leaking fuel, it didn’t have any in it”. I can recall many stories of lightning flights where things went wrong, seemed like most! Including “Tim” parking his F6 in the ploughed field to the left of crash gate 3, towards the hangars.

A day that will live with me vividly forever, will be attending Clachy’s burial at Binbrook cemetery. He had been selected to join the Red Arrows as Binbrook closed and died at Scampton (his Hawk hitting the runway) during Red’s training on the 22nd January 1988, before his first display season.

Sorry if this veers slightly of topic, but some facts are better than supposition.