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Visiting military aircraft - civillian airfields

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Harkins
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Visiting military aircraft - civillian airfields

Post by Harkins » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:00 pm

Not easy to sum this up in the thread title. Anyway, I have noticed over time that a lot of military aircraft seem to be photographed at civilain airfields. Just now I looked at this thread and Bobbster noted how Culdrose is quiet and visitors have been using Newquay.

I expect that it's a silly question and there will be a simplle and obvious explanation, but why do Tornados do missed approaches at Liverpool airport, Middle Eastern tankers and transports night stop at Manchester? The French seem to love bumbling around Newquay. Newcastle seems popular for missed approaches.

I'd just have expected that military aircraft would stick to military airfields. I kind of assumed that the military wouldn't chrage each other landing fees and that maybe they'd even enjoy each others company. And as military aviation is generally less busy than in the good old days, I'd have assumed that touch and goes, missed approaches, luch/refueling and stopovers would actually provide some much needed practice/activity for military ATC and other service people. It's surely not that places like Scampton or Leeming are too busy compared to the budget airline hubs is it?

By goodness, couldn't Lossiemouth do with a bit of Glasgow and Prestwicks trade. Or is it simply too far off course, even in an aircraft?

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Dazza37
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Re: Visiting military aircraft - civillian airfields

Post by Dazza37 » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:22 pm

East Midlands is an alternate for Brize and Waddo traffic iirc and we often get overshoots from Tornado and Typhoons as well. Someone did once tell me why EMA was an alternate, but the reason escapes me at the moment...

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reheat module
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Re: Visiting military aircraft - civillian airfields

Post by reheat module » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:38 pm

I recall viewing a chart in Waddo Ops which gave details on alternative civilian airfields for approaches etc in terms of costs.
They were all rather expensive!
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Harkins
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Re: Visiting military aircraft - civillian airfields

Post by Harkins » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:53 pm

That's certainly one of the reasons in my mind why it seems very odd. That is assuming that RAF Valley don't send the French air force or RAF Brize Norton a huge bill for some overshoots. And I'm pretty sure that on an average day, most RAF bases see much less activity than East Midlands airport.

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RJ79
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Re: Visiting military aircraft - civillian airfields

Post by RJ79 » Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:16 pm

I asked this up at a client of mine at Norwich Airport and they charge landing/parking fees by the weight of the plane or Helicopter, Cessna = next to nothing, Chinook and upwards very expensive. On top of this the fuel ticket goes to the MOD but they do offer a free lunch! That will also explain the four hawks last month at Chocksaway up at Hawarden (it made my Dad's day!)
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sschofield
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Re: Visiting military aircraft - civillian airfields

Post by sschofield » Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:11 pm

There's often a far more mundane reason - For example, back in the 90's at Manchester we used to get regular Saudi C-130 visits. The reason they stuck to Manchester is that they had handling agreements in place, so there'd be a coach that picked the crew up and took them to their hotel, the fuel, landing fees etc were all invoiced directly to the RSAF.

We also got sporadic visits from Moroccan C-130s and in later days CN-235s, the reason for which was because the King liked Rolls-Royces and they were either bringing them back to the factory for work to be done on them, or occasionally they were picking a new one up!

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bizfreeq
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Re: Visiting military aircraft - civillian airfields

Post by bizfreeq » Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:35 pm

It is also to practice using civilian controllers and procedures, there won't always be a military airfield nearby if they need to get on the ground in a hurry. Hence the number of PDs and procedural approaches at the likes of Bournemouth and Newquay during the average week. It's all very well training at familiar airfields such as the home base or another familiar RAF field b v but what if you only have Exeter available as a divert? Familiarity with such places and how they are used can only be useful should the time come you actually need to use one.
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Hunter49
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Re: Visiting military aircraft - civillian airfields

Post by Hunter49 » Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:17 pm

As i recall i was informed by an RAF guy doing approaches at civ airports is cheaper than RAF airfields . ? ROB

ArabJazzie
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Re: Visiting military aircraft - civillian airfields

Post by ArabJazzie » Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:49 pm

Over the years, we at Dundee have done rather well with military traffic, but obviously very little of the faster stuff. Best i think has been a USN Orion on a PD, however it was only because it was on its way back to Leuchars at the time. Tucanos have to visit places like ours as part of their training syllabus and we still get the odd 2 or 3 but not the heady heights of 10-14 a day for a week or 2!

Northolt send us their 146 for training and Hercs have been in for a variety of reasons, and when the 146 were busy at the weekend, we got an A.400M! Impressive to see on a 1400x30m runway!
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Alfie
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Re: Visiting military aircraft - civillian airfields

Post by Alfie » Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:06 pm

Of the reasons posted here is that why the Reds tend to use civilian airfields rather than military ones I could never quite understand why they use Exeter, Bournemouth and Bristol Lulsgate, rather than Yeovilton when in the south-west.

RubyRoo
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Re: Visiting military aircraft - civillian airfields

Post by RubyRoo » Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:01 pm

I suppose for weekend displays that the Red's usually partake in, the nearest operational MoD airfield might be closed for the weekend, so it makes sense to use a civilian airfield with extended opening hours. Why pay for ground crew/military ATC operators etc when you can use a civilian one.

Supra
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Re: Visiting military aircraft - civillian airfields

Post by Supra » Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:35 am

Had to laugh about the Reds using Yeovilton as an operating base. Even with a major carrier-wing exercising a couple of years back, with several USN F-18 being short of fuel on notified missions & Yeovilton the designated fuel diversion.....they still turned-out the lights, locked-up & did the usual quitting-time, plus the obligitory POETS day on Friday. The C-2's & C-26 operated to & fro over the w/e without ATC. :roll:

Agent K
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Re: Visiting military aircraft - civillian airfields

Post by Agent K » Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:45 am

Hunter49 wrote:As i recall i was informed by an RAF guy doing approaches at civ airports is cheaper than RAF airfields . ? ROB
Can't quite see that, what would the additional expense be?, I'd imagine it is cheaper (no landing fees etc.) at an open military airfield?

SCARECROW
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Re: Visiting military aircraft - civillian airfields

Post by SCARECROW » Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:27 am

Example of MOD landing fees C172 £60, C525 £116, S-76 £150
Heavier the aircraft the more expensive the landing fees, if more than 24 hours are required more expenes again

Best fees was for an AN 124 at Marham over 20 years ago, fees were in the thousands !

sjnovis
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Re: Visiting military aircraft - civillian airfields

Post by sjnovis » Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:21 am

Quite recently there were some photos of a Tornado that went into Newcastle as an emergency divert after a bird strike, in these circumstances would Newcastle still charge a landing fee? I would expect them to charge for any fuel etc.

I believe if a civil aircraft (certainly a PPL type) needed to make an emergency landing at a Military field there would be no charges

page_verify
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Re: Visiting military aircraft - civillian airfields

Post by page_verify » Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:46 am

One of the reason that heavies often use civilian airfields for training is because they have approach and nav systems that UK military bases don't have but which they have to know how to use when they deploy abroad.

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tonkatom
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Re: Visiting military aircraft - civillian airfields

Post by tonkatom » Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:39 pm

Surely RAF or USAF bases don't charge other bases for there aircraft performing overshoots,touch and go's? The controllers are in the tower anyway and different types are probably good for training.
Landing and being fuelled I imagine is different,even if a Military type aircraft approached and performed an approach to depart,I can't see why the civilian airfield would charge for this?
I always thought that approaching civilian airfields for go arounds was all part of the training for the pilot,different navigating paths in and out of the airfield and often in busy airspace,controllers and location.
On a video the RAF posted on Frisian flag a 31 Sqn pilot mentioned they could have flown the ex from Marham but a different airfield poses new challenges,it must get pretty repetitive flying out of the same airfield day in and day out.
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Malcolm
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Re: Visiting military aircraft - civillian airfields

Post by Malcolm » Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:32 pm

tonkatom wrote:Surely RAF or USAF bases don't charge other bases for there aircraft performing overshoots,touch and go's? The controllers are in the tower anyway and different types are probably good for training.
Landing and being fuelled I imagine is different,even if a Military type aircraft approached and performed an approach to depart,I can't see why the civilian airfield would charge for this?
I always thought that approaching civilian airfields for go arounds was all part of the training for the pilot,different navigating paths in and out of the airfield and often in busy airspace,controllers and location.
On a video the RAF posted on Frisian flag a 31 Sqn pilot mentioned they could have flown the ex from Marham but a different airfield poses new challenges,it must get pretty repetitive flying out of the same airfield day in and day out.
When bean counters get into positions of power all sorts of silly things start to happen.

I remember (back in the 1980's) when I was a fence dweller at Yeovilton that there was a story going around that the RAF and RN had fallen out over landing/ATC fees. Something about the Sea Harriers and Sea Kings being charged by the RAF to use ILS/NAVAIDS at Lyneham (Yeovilton didn't have ILS until well after the SHAR's were scrapped). So the RN retaliated by charging the RAF for ATC services for Lyneham Hercs doing PD's at VLN. Anyway, upshot was SHARS & SK4's did their ILS training at Exeter/Cardiff, and RAF PD's into Yeovilton more or less stopped.

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