Another close call (Typhoon at Waddington)

[GVLCN]

Awesome guess the pilot was a spotter lol. If someone moans because the pilot was too low then they are complete morons,, same as the idiots who thought it was a good idea to stand behind a b-1 at Cottesmore on take-off

[Ghastly Whisper]

This has become such a pointless thread just going round and round and round, 90% of people in that video will not read any of this mainly because they are Joe Public and couldn't care less, most probably have not even heard of FC!! As for this "all for a better picture" that's rubbish anybody with half a brain can see in the video that there are no true photographers there, the vast majority are holding up phones!!! especially the ones on the little fence, the ones at the red and white fence deserved what they got and should not bleat about it.

Lock this thread and let it die, completely pointless waste of time.

[blakey]

Compared to the other 2 Typhoons that day he was a lot lower but the 41 sqn Typhoon still didnt touch down until after the caravan

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=83138

[RichC]

This has become such a pointless thread just going round and round and round, 90% of people in that video will not read any of this mainly because they are Joe Public and couldn't care less, most probably have not even heard of FC!! As for this "all for a better picture" that's rubbish anybody with half a brain can see in the video that there are no true photographers there, the vast majority are holding up phones!!! especially the ones on the little fence, the ones at the red and white fence deserved what they got and should not bleat about it.

Lock this thread and let it die, completely pointless waste of time.

If you don't like the thread, don't read it. Why are you still reading it, in fact? It's a discussion and obviously people on FC feel the need to discuss it otherwise it wouldn't be 4 pages long so far. There is simply no reason at all to lock this thread.
To the mods... don't lock the thread, you're all too eager to press the lock button for no apparent reason or if two people have a difference in opinion. It is why discussions on FC barely make two pages long.
Simple solution to not liking it, is to go elsewhere on the forum and don't post pointless replies like yours.

[Velvet Glove]

Have you ever seen a Dutch Starfighter flying Chris ?

Nope, that's why I want to see a video!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-2Sc8FvCiM
Very sedate

[Ghastly Whisper]

This has become such a pointless thread just going round and round and round, 90% of people in that video will not read any of this mainly because they are Joe Public and couldn't care less, most probably have not even heard of FC!! As for this "all for a better picture" that's rubbish anybody with half a brain can see in the video that there are no true photographers there, the vast majority are holding up phones!!! especially the ones on the little fence, the ones at the red and white fence deserved what they got and should not bleat about it.

Lock this thread and let it die, completely pointless waste of time.

If you don't like the thread, don't read it. Why are you still reading it, in fact? It's a discussion and obviously people on FC feel the need to discuss it otherwise it wouldn't be 4 pages long so far. There is simply no reason at all to lock this thread.
To the mods... don't lock the thread, you're all too eager to press the lock button for no apparent reason or if two people have a difference in opinion. It is why discussions on FC barely make two pages long.
Simple solution to not liking it, is to go elsewhere on the forum and don't post pointless replies like yours.

Thats ok feel free to have a go at me, like everyone else I will put what I like and say what I like, I see that nobody else has taken offence to what I said, if you dont like it go away but hey as a moderator i'm sure you are right. (insert groveling smiley)

Waiting now for the ban for upsetting a moderator

[RichC]

I'm a section moderator and so cannot moderator the forum apart from the airband section. So i am technically not part of the mod team.
I'm not having a go at you, you clearly were saying the thread i started was pointless when it clearly isn't, it generated interest. People have difference of opinions and if you don't like someones opinion then simply don't read anymore. There is no need to continue reading something you don't agree on and say the whole thread is pointless.

You're welcome to put what you like, your opinions count on FC but why ask for a thread to be locked when there is simply no reason apart from that YOU don't like it? Think about others who have actively partaken in the thread and have interest. There is certainly room for discussion on something that is directly related to the hobby of ours.

[Ghastly Whisper]

The point I was trying to put accross is that more than one person has said exactly the same thing over and over. hence what I said about locking it, makes no diffence at all to me

[Velvet Glove]

I’m sure G.D. is going through a bad ‘episode’ and, in time, will look back, reflect and admit so himself. Enjoyable thread me thinks!

You guys should kiss and make up or go in different directions.

Have a good weekend, BOTH of you.

[Ghastly Whisper]

Now theres somebody that knows me.

[RichC]

We haven't fallen out
why not let them voice their opinions like you have yours and i have mine. We have the right.

Back on topic, no one has yet managed to answer my original question asked in the first post and throughout.... perhaps someone working in the industry can answer it?
It is a legitimate question i would like the answer to as Yeovilton ATC back in 2009 didn't know why they were all touching down so close (rafale on the grass, typhoon nearly on the grass) and were a bit surprised to see the Rafale had actually landed on the grass.
Why, at some airfields, do the fast jets seem to land particularly close to the threshold (sometimes extremely close to the point they land in front of the runway) when other aircraft, whether it be a BAe146, Tristar or Tutor land further down the runway at the proper touchdown point?
It doesn't happen at most air stations, only the fast jet stations (or former) such as Yeovilton, Coningsby, Waddington.

1. Are they under guidance during these touchdowns (Talkdown, ILS)?
2. Are they visually approaching using PAPI?

It is not confined to the Typhoon in particular, i have seen Tornado, Rafale, Typhoon, Super Etendard, A-10 all do it.

[Ghastly Whisper]

I agree we haven't fallen out

Forrest Fan on page 2 paragraph 2 has been the closest to answering your question, The others BAe146, Tristar or Tutor presumably do not have the same systems.

[Zeb]

Thing is...IMO that this was an air Show, he put on a display by coming in low to impress the crowds by the road. Probably a little too low hence he got on the news. People stand at the end of commercial runways as well for the experience and thrill. The fact that it got caught on quality video by someone at the right place at the right time is a bonus. The stills from the video look like the tifs been photoshopped over the road it's that low.

[RichC]

I did see that post but wondered if that was particular to the Typhoon only or does the other FJ types have the same system, possibly the Rafale?
If that is the case (in the Typhoon), why is the pilot aiming for the touchdown point to be so close to the grass and not at the proper touchdown point indicated by markings on the runway? It's rather confusing why pilots would want to put more risk than playing it completely safe. It clearly isn't safe landing so close to the grass, either being so low you hit a fence (that can't be good for the pilot or plane) or landing on the grass (why?).
If you did it on a carrier, you'd be dead so why do it at an airfield with 9000ft of runway to play with.

Edit:
Zeb,
But the RAF state that being 2-3ft above the fence is normal even though officials came out to check the fence. And other pictures of a normal approach show the aircraft much higher. Agree he may have done it because of the airshow and perhaps that is why the RAF apologised.
Each to there own who stand there, it's their choice to and their choice only. The pilot saw them there and probably knew they wouldn't even move so if i was the pilot, i would have elected to play it safe and did a higher approach for the reason being, he had no way of moving them to the side so why come in so low and possibly harm someone (its their choice not to move, i know but some are stubborn).

It's similar to rallying i suppose. People line up around the jumps and corners and the drivers have no escape route apart from going the crowd. It's catch 22 in some respects. But i still believe the pilot could have gone a little higher, playing or not. Why? Because he had 9000ft of runway. Other aircraft, larger in type and at airfields such as Princess Juliana have no choice to come in very low as they will run out of runway if they don't. Waddington has sufficient length to allow anything landing there to safely touch down at the usual place.
It's more of an understanding (for me) as a learning process rather than "knocking" those concerned.

[blakey]

The other 2 came in a lot higher and like i said this particular Typhoon came in low but didnt touch down until after the caravan someway down the runway

[graham luxton]

According to Flight Information Publications there are two things which pilots should be aware of when landing on Runway20 at Waddington:

1) Unexpected turbulence in the final stages of the approach when there is a strong Westerly wind.

2)High sided vehicles crossing the approach either jumping a red light or in the event of a traffic light failure.

Perhaps they should add a third - spotters on stepladders!

[Mayfly]

It would be interesting to see the Typhoon landing configuration, all a/c differ. I know the Vulcan uses a 3deg glide slope for instance and given it's size often makes it look low - passenger carrying a/c are in a different class and use different parameters.

I know in general the RAF say that unused runway behind you is runway wasted. Perhaps the airfields you mention Rich have inset thresholds?

I guess they checked the fences just to be on the safe side with lots of other types arriving it may depend on what their angle of sight was, perspective is strange thing.

[RichC]

Thanks Mayfly.
I have been looking on Google Earth at the runway configurations of each airfield.
Yeovilton does not have any "touchdown" markings, it only has a threshold marking and a very short (75ft) displaced threshold. So in essence, those that landed on or close to the grass at Yeovilton were indeed landing on the displaced threshold and so that is, i assume, not right. It's displaced with arrows pointing to the threshold markings and start of the runway.

At Waddington, it just has threshold markings and it does have a touchdown marking 380m from the threshold, i guess for the larger types, no displaced as is the case with Coningsby. Both have a lip of asphalt before the threshold markings but no displaced markings however Coningsby has no touchdown markings either, similar to Yeovilton.

If you look at Waddington, there are tyre marks right at the start, even before threshold markings just 28ft from the grass. The majority of FJ touchdown marks start at approx 250ft from the grass. Interestingly, at the other end, there is a yellow chevron area which is prohibited to land on and the tyre marks are approx 250ft from the threshold so they only seem to land like this on the A15 end.

Found an interest discussion pprune here about the no markings at RAF airfields
http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-367194.html

[nickowen]

Wise words there from Jem and others.

I've been keeping out of this thread, but coincidentally we had a very similar landing incident at our strip on Wednesday evening which sadly resulted in an accident, with the aeroplane clipping the hedge and ending up on its back on the threshold. Both crew got out, but with head and neck injuries, the latter mercifully not limb-threatening, but neither they nor the aeroplane (which is a total loss) will be coming to France with us next weekend.

Granted this was a very small aeroplane with a 100hp engine, but if anybody had been standing by the hedge anywhere near the centreline, they would have been decapitated.

Please don't lurk in the undershoot.

Nick

[Mike]

Wise words there from Jem and others.

I've been keeping out of this thread, but coincidentally we had a very similar landing incident at our strip on Wednesday evening which sadly resulted in an accident, with the aeroplane clipping the hedge and ending up on its back on the threshold. Both crew got out, but with head and neck injuries, the latter mercifully not limb-threatening, but neither they nor the aeroplane (which is a total loss) will be coming to France with us next weekend.

Granted this was a very small aeroplane with a 100hp engine, but if anybody had been standing by the hedge anywhere near the centreline, they would have been decapitated.

Please don't lurk in the undershoot.

Nick

Well said Nick, I can honestly say that in almost 50 years of spotting and aviation photography I have never stood in the undershoot area of any airfield that I've ever visited. That includes St. Maarten by the way, I stood behind and to the right hand side of the outboard starboard engine of a Corsair 747 there once on full take-off power and that was utterly frightening - I could hardly breathe, I actually bottled it and sprinted !

As for arrivals at St. Maarten, I sat in the Sunset Beach Bar and watched and photographed the nutters on the beach within the undershoot area waving at the incoming aircraft. One day there will be a major disaster there - they have never heard about Health & Safety at the end of the runway, there's no lights (like at Waddington), just no restrictions whatsoever !

For some strange reason a GAF Transall landed while we were there, Anyone know why it was there ?