Tiger meet 2018 Poland + Poznan Airshow

[LTFT5]

After spending the following day with based staff they were very sorry that it did not meet the expectations of many. This being one of the biggest NTM in as many years in terms of aircraft and personnel on site, the Polish simply didn't think it was safe enough to have people walking around aircraft and based in between the runway/taxiway.

Having attended the event I must say there was hundreds of people walking around the aircraft photographing and videoing proceedings from the Southside.
Also,walking behind the Czech apron photographing from the hill at the line up point, so many that I do not have one photograph without them in lol
Somewhere somebody thought that was safe enough.
That said I thoroughly enjoyed the event and my none photographing spotter friends thought it was excellent.
Perhaps we as photographers expect far too much and we such just be thankful that somebody is still willing to organise these events on our behalf.



All the best
Andy

[PeteHemsley]

After spending the following day with based staff they were very sorry that it did not meet the expectations of many. This being one of the biggest NTM in as many years in terms of aircraft and personnel on site, the Polish simply didn't think it was safe enough to have people walking around aircraft and based in between the runway/taxiway.

Having attended the event I must say there was hundreds of people walking around the aircraft photographing and videoing proceedings from the Southside.
Also,walking behind the Czech apron photographing from the hill at the line up point, so many that I do not have one photograph without them in lol
Somewhere somebody thought that was safe enough.
That said I thoroughly enjoyed the event and my none photographing spotter friends thought it was excellent.
Perhaps we as photographers expect far too much and we such just be thankful that somebody is still willing to organise these events on our behalf

VIP and families I believe.



All the best
Andy

[Supra]

I do have a fundamental problem with 'those' personnel south-side being 'VIP & families' as they probably have zero experience of being in close proximity to aircraft operations? At Zaragoza we were mandated to wear hi-viz vests & permitted access to the area between the taxiway & runway. The 'Spotters' ( I do detest that description! ) were so well-behaved during the morning session that the Base felt able to extend the facility using the reduced Service Personnel available!
I personally found the organisation at Landivisau lacking, especially for Week 1. Taxiway opportunities there were limited by high grass & the aircraft had to be 100ft+ at take-off before a shot could be taken, due to heat haze from the taxiway & grass. Naturally, grass is under their control, heat-haze isn't. Positioning is everything!
Think back to Jagel TM. where the majority of jets came to us & posed in numerous locations, so everybody had the chance to get their shots. Even the special jets u/s for flying taxied over to do a few turns.
The sentiment of "oh, we're so lucky they even bother to have an event for us" doesn't cut-it for me. After the expenses of staging the 'spotters' event are subtracted, I'm sure there's enough left-over for the post-ex beer bash party?
I firmly believe that if you accept less, you will get even less next time!
PS:- What was in the Goodie-bags?

[pg1610]

I do have a fundamental problem with 'those' personnel south-side being 'VIP & families' as they probably have zero experience of being in close proximity to aircraft operations? At Zaragoza we were mandated to wear hi-viz vests & permitted access to the area between the taxiway & runway. The 'Spotters' ( I do detest that description! ) were so well-behaved during the morning session that the Base felt able to extend the facility using the reduced Service Personnel available!
I personally found the organisation at Landivisau lacking, especially for Week 1. Taxiway opportunities there were limited by high grass & the aircraft had to be 100ft+ at take-off before a shot could be taken, due to heat haze from the taxiway & grass. Naturally, grass is under their control, heat-haze isn't. Positioning is everything!
Think back to Jagel TM. where the majority of jets came to us & posed in numerous locations, so everybody had the chance to get their shots. Even the special jets u/s for flying taxied over to do a few turns.
The sentiment of "oh, we're so lucky they even bother to have an event for us" doesn't cut-it for me. After the expenses of staging the 'spotters' event are subtracted, I'm sure there's enough left-over for the post-ex beer bash party?
I firmly believe that if you accept less, you will get even less next time!
PS:- What was in the Goodie-bags?

A spotters Log Book, and Patch/coin ;-))

as for your quote
The sentiment of "oh, we're so lucky they even bother to have an event for us" doesn't cut-it for me

are you saying you expect access ??, thankfully some of us here are realists and do not expect to be given access so ARE grateful for what ever we can get , I did not do Jagel but remember the pictures and thought how lucky every one was at that event,
for me the last two TMs are a taste of what we can expect over the next few years assuming SPOTTERS DAYS ( not sure what else you would call them) are planned into the meetings schedule

Note Mont de Marsan has been mentioned as next years venue, take a look at the satellite image, I think there is less space that at Poznan so expect to be North side again(happy to be proven wrong

[Malcolm]

Note Mont de Marsan has been mentioned as next years venue, take a look at the satellite image, I think there is less space that at Poznan so expect to be North side again(happy to be proven wrong

Only time I've ever been to MdM was for the Mirage 4 retirement bash. For that entry was via the main gate (southside), the event was held on the ramp in the North East corner, and exit was from the North West corner. Didn't get anywhere near the main active ramp or hangars, and from the north east ramp you can't see much of the runway either (they were on 09 that day).

[114PM]

For the retirement of the Mirage F-1 we were positioned at the southside in MdM!

[A380_sully]

but the morning registration was very frustrating, mainly due to the increasingly reputation losing 4Aviation tour group, who thought it okay to arrive at the last minute and break the queue right at the entrance to the kiosk, forming 2 lines and leaving hundreds who had queued for a coupe of hours at least less than happy.

Hi Kelvin,

We could respond to your public naming and shaming in 3 different ways;

1. By telling you in detail how stupid it would have been to deliberately put the reputation of 4Aviation up for grabs in a situation where hundreds of potential customers could see it;
2. By telling you in detail what really happened (that we were only 70 people and joined the queue of a least a hundred others that were already in the second line and were told by the Polish military that that was the line to be in);
3. By asking you to contact any of the 2000 individuals that have joined us how they perceive our reputation.

Which of the three is your preferred option?

Rgds,
Stefan

Stefan,

When I arrived at 7am there was already a single line queue of at least 1000 people ahead of me, which we joined. The kiosk should have been opened at 8am but this was delayed by the late arrival of the Polish force staff. The single line continued to snake through the car park as others arrived & was soon as far as the kiosk itself. The kiosk opened on one side only and began processing the spotters. This continued for about 60 minutes until our section of the queue neared the kiosk area. It was at that moment that the rear of the kiosk was opened, after the designation boards for which side were NTM only and NTM/PAS tickets were finally displayed. As the rear of the kiosk was opened those towards the back of the queue and closest to that side of the kiosk, decided to screw everyone who had queued for hours ahead of them and make a straight line for the newly opened kiosk windows.

The problem was, as they had decided to enjoy a late breakfast, they were unaware of the split kiosk arrangement, unlike those of us who were in the main line, and confusion ensued as to who should be on which side of the kiosk. This lead to the large uproar you will have heard from those who had taken the time to arrive early. Unfortunately those queue jumpers, who had clear vision and could see the queues ahead of them, took it upon themselves to ignore everyone's protests and continue to remain in their newly formed queue of just a coupe of hundred people. Amidst all of this queue were dozens of people adorning 4Aviation baggage tags, so it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who's trip they were on. I also question the integrity of the your tour leader, who must have some amount of common decency, who should have in fact asked your tour members to continue to queue in the main line. You may claim to have asked a Polish military person, but frankly they were about as much help as an ashtray on a motorcycle, hence why your reputation is tarnished further by this poor judgement.

I was stood with a group of Dutch enthusiasts in the queue and they instantly spotted it was your group breaking in the line and they were far from complimentary of your company. I also have friends who were in Rainbow Canyon last year and who again found your enthusiasts disrespectful and rude whilst on the Canyon, much like the actions of those in Poznan.

So there you have it, dress up your version as much as you wish, but I would recommend you advise your tour participants and staff more wisely in future, for as you say, it would be stupid of you to personally put the reputation of your company in jeopardy. But don't lose sight of the fact that those who work for you and those who travel with you, adorning your tour company name are also an extension of your business and from what I witnessed first hand in Poznan, frankly, it was very poor form.

Kelvin

[p6025]

I think we can all agree the organisation on Friday at the M1 parking area was seriously lacking (perhaps even more so once the Polish personnel arrived!). When I arrived ~06:35 the two sides of the ticket booth were signed with "NTM+PAS" and "NTM" respectively, but there was just a single queue to the first of those. It appeared, to me at least, that the second queue was started after the Polish personnel appeared and added to the confusion/annoyance.

Not sure why 4aviation are being singled out, when any blame is squarely upon those responsible for the event organisation and their ineffective personnel.


Paul.

[4Aviation]

Hi Kelvin,

I also question the integrity of the your tour leader [...] poor judgement.

I was the tour leader and I do not feel like explaining in detail what exactly happened anymore (especially now that you have inadvertently proven my point), but do not question my integrity!

It appeared, to me at least, that the second queue was started after the Polish personnel appeared and added to the confusion/annoyance.

Not sure why 4aviation are being singled out, when any blame is squarely upon those responsible for the event organisation and their ineffective personnel.

thanks Paul, 'nuff said as far as I am concerned.

Rgds,
Stefan

[A380_sully]

Stefan,

It appears yourself and Paul are in the minority of people who think what happened and moreover the actions of 4Aviation was acceptable.

We were amongst the hundreds if not thousands who found it deplorable.

Integrity “ is the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles” - neither of which did you
portray in Poznan. I think questioning of your company’s integrity remains justified.

Kelvin

[markranger]

Going to lock this.
Sounds like it was a shambles and not sure that was 4 Aviation's fault.